Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Baldwin of Forde/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ucucha 19:44, 4 February 2012.

Baldwin of Forde

 * Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 13:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because ... once more, something wicked this way comes... oh, wait. Not so wicked, as Baldwin was not noted for the wickedness of his life or anything exciting like that. Baldwin's a rather common exemplar of the English medieval ecclesiastic - lived his life well in conformity to the expectations, served his king and his church, went on Crusade, got involved in a few disputes but was generally considered a "good egg" by most. Not a saint by any means, but not a bad boy either, Baldwin was an author as well as a cleric. He's had a Good Article review, a very exacting peer review, plus a final polish by Malleus. This is how the article looked when I started editing it, so it's been substantially rewritten and expanded during my time with the article. Note that although I'm participating in the wikicup, and there will probably be a bot slapping a notice about that on this nom, I will not be claiming this article for the competition, as most of the work on it took place prior to 2012. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Sources and images but no spotchecks. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Exter or Exeter?
 * "From the Conquest to the Death of King John" or "From the Conquest to the Death of John"?
 * Domesday to Magna Carta or Domesday Book to Magna Carta?
 * FN 7 vs 26
 * Be consistent in whether page ranges are abbreviated or not
 * Check for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods
 * Be consistent in whether ISBNs are hyphenated or not
 * Where in Belgium was Sharpe published?
 * Does the Duggan in Further reading not have a first name or initial?
 * Single image is unproblematic. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed everything but the double period - it's a fault of the template, I'm not going to make the data field inaccurate by not including the period after the initial. Also - Sharpe's Handlist does not give a further location in Belgium other than "Belgium". I gotta say though - asking for all hyphenated or all unhyphenated ISBNs is getting into the range of way out there with consistency - I did it, but only because I was able to - most online book databases do not hyphenate and I'm not going to kill myself to find hyphens. They make it easier for people to read them, that's why I include them, but I'm more inclined to just strip ALL the ISBNs out of the references if I'm going to have to do this every time at FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Support on the basis of my peer review, here. I raised the question of the appropriateness of the "Legacy" title; there's precious little "legacy" there, the section is mainly a sort of appraisal of his nature (distinguished scholar, gloomy and nervous, sounds familiar). But I couldn't suggest an alternative title so I'm not pressing the point, though if someone can think of something more apposite, that would be  small improvement. Brianboulton (talk) 16:56, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I couldn't think of one either, Brian. If I had, I'd have gladly changed it (and if anyone comes up with one, please suggest it...) Thanks for the excellent peer review, by the way, and thank you for the review here (also thank you Nikki - it's been a wild couple of days here ... I'm a bit cranky.) Ealdgyth - Talk 17:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * And I'm quite nitpicky, so call it even. The reason I asked about Sharpe was because you have another book from the same publisher that does have a more specific location. As to "Legacy", I've seen "Image", "Reception" and "Reputation" used for that type of section, although I'm not sure I'd prefer any of those here. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I went ahead with Nikki's excellent suggestion of "Reception" - I've never been totally happy with Legacy either... Ealdgyth - Talk 03:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Support: Another excellent piece of work. Very comprehensive but possible to follow what is going on and no obvious problems with jargon, etc. A few very, very minor points, none of which affect my support. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Minor picky point, but quite a few sentences begin "In 11XX…". Not sure much can be done that is not contrived, but it is slightly repetitive.
 * "is said to have sent Baldwin to Italy to study law.[5] Baldwin was also said to have taught at Exeter, although this is not substantiated by any contemporary record." Fussy point, but who said it? I assumed that it was contemporary "gossip" or hearsay, but it can't be if it is not in the records.
 * "after his father's death": Baldwin's or Bartholemew's?
 * "Eventually all the prominent ecclesiastics and monastic houses of Europe were forced into choosing sides in the dispute.": More of a personal query than anything to change: was it really such a big deal? It seems quite a local affair, even by contemporary standards. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed the second and third points, and on the fourth - yeah, you and I would consider it very minor but it wasn't in the time frame - it engaged most of the western European ecclesiastics at some point or another. The Becket cult was HUGE in medieval Europe - not just in England, but across most of modern France, Spain, Germany, Italy and Scandinavia - and any intimation that the body might be moved was big news. The Christ Church monks were not afraid to use the revenues that came in from the cult to protect their cash cow - at the first sign that they might possibly lose their stranglehold on the cult, they started screaming bloody murder throughout Europe and that usually created quite a ruckus. I haven't really thought that the episode needed much more detail - but yes, it was a big deal that caused quite a lot of grief to Baldwin - and his successor Huber Walter also. Walter had to drag himself before the king a couple of times because relations got so bad with his cathedral chapter (the monks of Christ Church - i.e. the monks who formed the clergy staffing Canterbury Cathedral). Thank you for the review! Ealdgyth - Talk 20:37, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Support Comments reading through now on prose and comprehensiveness....Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * In the Ecclesiastical career section, I'd swap the third and fourth sentences as the third seems to postdate the fourth (?) - another option is to make the fourth sentence have the pluperfect tense "... 1138 to 1155, had sent Baldwin to Italy to study law".


 * I'm copyediting as I go (please revert if I guff the meaning) - there are alot of "Baldwin"s throughout the text. I am seeing if we can do without a few without losing context.


 * The first three paras in the Writings and studies section all start "Baldwin...", which is a tad repetitive but I am having difficulty thinking of alternatives. One consideration might be to append para 3 (collaborations) onto para 1 (works), and move para 2 (sermons) to after this. Anyway, have a play.


 * I'm in two minds whether the quoted bits in the first two sentences of the Legacy  section are worth the quote marks or better reworded without.

Otherwise looking spiffy as usual, eh what? Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I got the first one, the copyediting looks fine, Malleus fixed the third one, and I think I lean towards the exact quotes for those - there are only three in the section, so rather than tax my poor brain thinking of paraphrases... definitely want to keep the Saladin one at least. Thanks for the review! Ealdgyth - Talk 12:58, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

You mention a "FitzNigel" at one point; do you mean "FitzNeal" instead? Ucucha (talk) 23:07, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, they are the same person - some folks use fitzNigel, some use fitzNeal. Do I use both? Ealdgyth - Talk 23:08, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. Another thing: in the "Reputation" section, the sentence about Baldwin's succession seems out of place. Ucucha (talk) 23:16, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Whacked the fitzNigel and removed the succession info. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:02, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.