Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ben Paschal/archive3


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:14, 31 August 2010.

Ben Paschal

 * Nominator(s): Secret account 23:23, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully third time the charm for this article. I finally got the time to fix Giants2008 concerns as I had health problems near the end of the last FAC. Criticism is welcome. Thanks Secret account 23:23, 3 August 2010 (UTC) -
 * Comment—no dab links, but the external link to http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/paschbe01.shtml is dead. Ucucha 05:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 16:53, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Ucucha 08:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources comment: Just one tiny nitpick. Since you have generally observed the "p." convention for page numbers, this should apply to refs 30 and 40 as well. Otherwise, all sources and refs OK. Brianboulton (talk) 23:30, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed Secret account 00:23, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment The name of the paper is TNYT not NYT. Also, is there something in the infobox that allows you to display the #games. That seems rather important  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  01:36, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed the first comment, I'm not sure about the second as I'm not an infobox person Secret account 02:30, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * As a matter of fact it has been agreed that New York Times is acceptable; don't ask me where the thread is, it was a couple of months back. Sandy may know. Anyhow, I have been accepting this form in sources reviews. Brianboulton (talk) 08:49, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Hah, Sandy told me to TNYT it one an FAC in 2008, but it probably is acceptable as many books etc just cite NYT and SMH  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  02:56, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, see User talk:SandyGeorgia/arch63. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:16, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The Bomb Strikes Again! Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * More comments
 * Is there some statistical database that shows how many games he played for the smaller teams, as this seems to be missing
 * Secondly is there some list of the games that Paschal played in and game-by-game stats, and the team's schedule, to see when he was playing and when he was dropped/injured. Because in parts the article says that he was dropped, close to being dropped or didn't play often, so I think it would be necessary to give some context, eg, he had ten games in a row where he didn't score anything, and was then dropped, etc. Because at the moment it mostly gives his averages and the odd notable performance, and says that he was not a regular player at times, so it doesn't map out his peaks and troughs throughout the season.  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  07:20, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Object. It needs to explain the team selection better. At the moment it casually mentions here and there that he was not always a regular but it doesn't explain what was happening: if some other guy turned up and got better stats and forced him out, or if his productivity went down, or when these things happened. On second thoughts, Object.  YellowMonkey   ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  07:25, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It explains that there was three starting outfielders by the time Paschal was playing so it was hard for him to crack the lineup. Yes there is a game log of everything but going though every game in which he didn't do anything and writing it out from baseball-reference makes it original research. Secret account 17:01, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see how stating a performance trend breaches OR, unless you make comments trying to link statistics to other factors. If you simply look and the logs and see that in one game X was playing and ten games later he was replaced by Y after not scoring anything, that is not OR, if you say it was because of this, and self-create attribution then it is a problem. But I can't see how one can talk about performance trends by just citing the season averages as it is completely unlikely that a person maintains the same level of performance all the time, especially when he is in and out of the team all the time, without even documenting when it was. Secondly it also doesn't even state how many games he played each season, declines in game time except for vague adjectives saying he doesn't play much.  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  02:56, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll add some stats to the article on monday, right now i'm busy at work and don't have a computer Secret account 01:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I added some stats, I noticed that Bob Meusel missed the whole month of July 1926 with some kind of injury I presume, during which Paschal played every day during that month. The only source I have are game logs, I want to come up with more reliable sourcing. Maybe if I get access to the New York Times archives I would get better results. Why doesn't wikipedia pay for these archives. Secret account 15:58, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Lots of people have a registration for this. When I asked at WT:MILHIST there was more than offer to download and email PDFs within a day  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll '')  05:05, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Note I just got access to the NYT will expand signifancly Secret account 13:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I asked in the baseball Wikiproject. Secret account 16:17, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Struck object  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  07:14, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I expanded it some more, pinch hitter was linked, as one for most of his career of course he didn't play in every game. I still don't have access to The New York Times, even though I asked in the related wikiproject. Secret account 16:34, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Now I do but it didn't give me much but the information given was helpful now I need someone to copyedit it for me. Secret account 15:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment; no image issues as of this (current) version. Эlcobbola  talk 17:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Comments – Third time that I've reviewed this one.
 * "Paschal is best known for hitting .360, standing in for Babe Ruth, who missed the first 40 games of the 1925 season with a stomach ailment." I'm not a big fan of the order here; in particular I'd like to see it made clear earlier that this was only in 1925. Perhaps something like "Paschal is best known for hitting .360 in the 1925 season while standing in for Babe Ruth, who missed the first 40 games with a stomach ailment." He didn't replace him for the whole season, so what I typed can be improved, but the order in that sentence is clearer in my view.
 * Used your example Secret account 21:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Early career: Two consecutive sentences end with citations to reference 9. The first one doesn't seem all that necessary to me. All the information is covered by the following cite, and it's not overly controversial to the point where it would require its own reference.
 * Fixed Secret account 21:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yankees career: The 1926 contract has no modern-day equivalent dollar amount, but the 1927 contract does. It would be a nice little addition, if possible.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 01:20, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe Wizardman did the modern-day equivalent amount on that, as I have no idea how to do it. Secret account 21:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Decided to add the required template myself.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 01:26, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

**There's a jump from his release by the Indians to his time with Muskegon. Looks like he played with Hall of Famer Bill Terry in Dothan, which could be worth an addition. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 03:09, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments:
 * "Paschal collected his only three hits, and lone runs batted in, of the year." I'd reword, noting that he had 3 RBI in that game.
 * "Paschal hit a home run in a 5–1 win against the defending World Series-champion Senators" Link the Washington Senators + add city name, since it's the first mention.
 * "Showing weakness against right-handed pitchers, the Yankees traded for veteran outfielder Bobby Veach." Swap the two pieces of the sentence around; as it is now it makes it sound like Paschal had the weakness rather than the whole team. If my first guess was right make it a bit clearer.
 * He had four solid years at St. Paul, yet only two are mentioned. the br link I give above has some stats if you want to beef that up a bit.
 * The publication names in the references should be linked on first mention; the Spartanburg paper is the only one getting that treatment right now.
 * Ref #28 (Red Sox Fan Tries to Spark His Team) has no page number; since it's LA Times I'm positive there is one.
 * I'll work with it tommorrow, right now i'm in a public library computer and can't really edit. Secret account 21:44, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed everything, expanded it some. Some of the newspapers didn't have an article so i left it without a link. With the LA Times I think they removed the article from google archives I can't find the page number for it, and I searched. I don't have a proquest account so I can't search its archives for the article. Secret account 16:34, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 22:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * I think some of the prose could do with a little work. At the moment, the reader either needs a good working knowledge of baseball or a lot of time to follow links. If this is aimed at the general reader, I think it needs further explanations. For example:
 * "Paschal was purchased as an option to keep": Sounds like a baseball expression and I think I understand it, but in my opinion, more clarification would help the reader. Better now, but I copy-edited it a little to try and make it flow.--Sarastro1 (talk) 07:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "He appeared in nine games, collecting one hit on August 16, which broke up a no-hitter by Bernie Boland with two outs in the ninth inning." Again, I can follow this, particularly by following the links, but it does not make easy reading to a non-baseballer. I see most of this has been taken out and replaced with something else. OK, but I think it would be good to include as it is obviously an indication of his ability. I just think it needs phrasing better and my knowledge of baseball is not enough for me to do it. Something like "He collected one hit on August 16, in a game where pitcher Bernie Boland allowed no other hits..." (I don't understand the significance of the two outs, so I can't do much with that. Was it good or bad?)
 * "In 1923 Paschal had a better season. In 141 games, Paschal got 200 hits, 22 triples and 26 home runs..." This is just a bald list of figures and I think just a little explanation would help.
 * At the very least, the word "got" is ugly. Achieved? Managed? To be nit-picky, what about some indication of where this placed him in comparison to others. Was 200 hits good? How good? --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Some of the prose is a little choppy with some of the sentences a little abrupt.
 * tried switching first sentence and rejigging subsequent ones for flow. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "Paschal was born in Enterprise, Alabama, and grew up as the son of farmers in nearby Sanford." "Grew up" seems redundant.
 * "After a two-year break from baseball because of World War I and other circumstances..." What circumstances?
 * "He appeared in nine games for the Red Sox, batting .357 with five runs batted in (RBI).[7] In his first game with the Red Sox, Paschal had three hits against José Acosta of the Washington Senators. The Red Sox returned Paschal to Charlotte because he was still inexperienced as a fielder.[9] On August 20, 1921, Paschal suffered a broken leg while sliding, which sidelined him the rest of the season." To me, these are choppy, and would benefit from being linked together somehow as they don't flow at the moment.
 * When was this? The previous sentence says after the 1920 season, so was this in 1921? But the lead says he played for the Red Sox in 1920. It really should be clear here. Who was Acosta? I'm assuming it was a significant achievement by Paschal, or it wouldn't need including. I've tried to tidy up this a little and improve the flow, but not sure of all the info. Feel free to revert if I've changed any meanings. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * These are just a few examples and there are others within the article. I think a copy-edit by a non-baseballer would help greatly. I am not suggesting giving all the rules of baseball in the article or writing for someone who doesn't know what baseball is, but I think a little more help would be beneficial. I know this is a problem I have in cricket articles. Also, I had a quick look at some baseball FAs such as Mariano Rivera, and these all seem to give more explanations and slightly expanded descriptions of statistics. --Sarastro1 (talk) 10:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I would do it later wait until monday I'm very busy right now Secret account 22:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Casliber fixed the prose for me I can't explain baseball terms very well without adding a few unnessarry sentences. Secret account 15:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've done a partial copy edit of one section to show what I mean about improving the choppy prose and giving some explanations. I don't think the sentences are unneccesary. The article isn't too long and it would improve it for the reader. I still believe a copy-edit by a non-baseballer would help. And the prose still needs work as I don't think it is currently FA standard. However, I don't think the article is a lost cause and just a little work would make a huge difference. Unfortunately I can't spare much more time on it. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now as I think the prose still needs some work. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Casliber did further copyediting of the article, check now Secret account 14:39, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * There are still outstanding points above. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:39, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

More comments
 * "who excelled at hitting for average and power, running, throwing and fielding": Two queries: what does it mean by hitting for power and average, and I think the sentence needs recasting as it reads like average, power, running, throwing and fielding are all types of hitting.
 * The lead says that Ruth, Combs and Meusel kept him out of the side. The main article does not really say this. It says that Ruth replaced him after his big lay-off, but only mentions the other two when Paschal replaced them. Is there a way of showing in the main body that he would have played but these three were preferred when fit?
 * Unless I've missed it (which is possible) there is nothing in the main text which refers to "considered one of the best bench players in baseball during his time with the Yankees, and sportswriters wrote how he would have started for most other teams in the American League. He was one of the best pinch hitters in the game during the period, at a time when the term was still relatively new to baseball". --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:39, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed the first concern, but I don't know where to place the information on the other instances except for the lead, his pinch hitting is featured on the main article. Secret account 19:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Could it not go at the end of his career as a summary? --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I moved some of the information without ruining the lead. Secret account 22:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "Babe Ruth struck out twice and popped out": Not sure what this means.
 * Final comment: I've done another copy-edit and I'm fairly happy now. Just the last few points to clear up. --Sarastro1 (talk) 09:29, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) MOSLINK says to avoid bunched links: why are both baseball and outfielder adjacently linked, when baseball is prominently linked in the outfielder article? I'm not sure "outfield" needs to be linked as well, below. Won't the reader get access to that through the first link? There are high-value links that should not be diluted in this way. "Boston Red Sox" and NYY ... repeat links. Can you weed them out?
 * 2) "After a two-year break from baseball because of World War I and other unclear circumstances,"—was WWI an unclear circumstance?
 * 3) Why was the bottom pic tiny? I've made it default size. Tony   (talk)  01:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * My source says World War I, so I fixed it though I can't explain why he didn't play the 1919 season, I know there was American forces still in France at that time so I'll let it slide. Removed repeated links. Secret account 15:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Support Comments  smoothing out prose as I go. Please revert if I goof and change the meaning accidentally. Queries below: Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Paschal did not play in the Yankees' 1927 World Series victory over the Pittsburgh Pirates. -why? fair enough, you can only add verified content.


 * Paschal and Durst were mentioned in several trade rumors for unclear reasons - why not just "Paschal and Durst were mentioned in several vague trade rumors"?


 * The end is abrupt - there is very little on his personal or post-playing life. Is there anything sourceable to add at all? If not then does any source mention him leading a quiet life or obscurity? If there is none then there is none I guess..I just think if there was anything else to add it'd make the article read a little better fair enough, you can only add verified content..Casliber (talk · contribs)


 * I don't have any sources on his personal life I have to closely research the sporting news every article between 1915 and 1934 to find any extra sources and that would take months. Also I don't have a source on why he didn't play the 1927 World Series I'll presume it's because he was just a backup. Secret account 15:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I figured you would have extracted most or all of waht is extractable, just double checking. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

*Oppose – per YM. Nothing on his playing style. What weaknesses did he have? Who did he play well against? so on....  Aaroncrick  TALK 11:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It explains his playing style well, he showed weakness against right handed pitchers and played well against left-handers, as he's a obsure baseball player I can't find much in sourcing. Secret account 13:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Note to closer, I expanded the article another 2,000 KB so wait until I get a reply back from YellowMonkey and Aaronchick, both whose edit times aren't the same as mine, it's like 1 AM in Australia right now before closing. I also asked several people and the related wikiproject for a copyedit. Secret account 15:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, thankyou for your hard work in trying to find info, and I thank you for your pleasant note on my talkpage.  Aaroncrick  TALK 21:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Support Comments by Aaroncrick – Article looks good. Queries jotted down below.  Aaroncrick  TALK 11:26, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * After a two-year break from baseball because of World War I..."—Previous sentence starts with after, so can you perhaps tweak?
 * "He had a rare start on June 1 against the White Sox, scoring a run."—What does this mean? A rare start? Sorry I know nothing about baseball.
 * "...in the seventh inning..."—Obviously not innings as with cricket?
 * We worded the previous sentence linked starting lineup to start, that means he just didn't play at all that year other than pinch hitting apperances. And yea it's innings like in cricket. Thanks Secret account 13:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.