Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Beowulf and Middle-earth/archive1

Beowulf and Middle-earth

 * Nominator(s): Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:03, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

This article is about J. R. R. Tolkien's use of the Old English poem Beowulf in his Middle-earth fantasy writings, especially his 1954–55 work The Lord of the Rings. Like the Beowulf poet, Tolkien was a Christian looking back at a distant pagan past; and he hoped to echo the poem's symbolism that managed never to be a mere allegory. The article was generously reviewed by and I hope that FAC reviewers will similarly find it worthwhile. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:03, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Image review

 * Suggest adding alt text
 * Added. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:56, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * File:Rolfs_sidste_kamp_-_Louis_Moe_(17009)_-_cropped.png needs copyright tag for the original work - under US law reproduction of a 2D work does not garner a new copyright. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:47, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Added PD-old on Commons, Louis Moe died in 1945. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:00, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This will also need a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:08, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Added PD-1923 on Commons (published 1898), happy to be advised if other licenses are more appropriate. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:46, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Support from Hurricane Noah

 * J. R. R. Tolkien, a fantasy author and professional philologist, drew on the Old English poem Beowulf for multiple aspects of his Middle-earth legendarium: in terms of elements such as names, monsters, and the structure of society in a heroic age; in terms of style such as creating an impression of depth and adopting an elegiac tone; and in terms of its larger but hidden symbolism. Multiple issues with this.
 * "In terms of" is used too many times.
 * Edited.
 * I would consider splitting this up into multiple sentences as it quite massive.
 * Done.


 * The names of races including ents, orcs, and elves, and placenames such as Orthanc and Meduseld, derive from Beowulf Should be a comma after races.
 * Done.


 * That symbolism, [...], Tolkien worked to echo in The Lord of the Rings. This is a bit clunky.
 * Rearranged.


 * Beowulf also rid Heorot of Grendel's mother. Source?
 * Added.


 * The name "Beowulf" can indeed be read as "the Bees' Wolf", that is, "the Honey-Eater", in other words "the Bear", the man who is so strong that he snaps swords and tears off the arms of monsters with his enormous bear-like strength. This is clunky and likely should be split into two sentences.
 * Split.


 * Smaug enraged when Bilbo steals golden cup missing a verb.
 * Fixed.


 * That should be it. Would you consider reviewing my article? Noah Talk 01:49, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * All done. I'll take a look at it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:41, 8 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Supporting now. Noah Talk 12:20, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Comments Support from Cas Liber
Looking now....(fascinating topic)
 * Thanks! Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:32, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Lead looks a little choppy at 3 smallish paras...I might consolidate into two.....
 * Done.


 * werebear looks odd to me hyphenated....(but then again I've played D&D for over 40 years..)
 * Unhyphenated it is.


 *  Beowulf was in the Tolkien scholar and fellow philologist Tom Shippey's words "the single work which influenced Tolkien most" - scans oddly when I read it - also, last segment can be reworded and dequoted.
 * Done.


 * Describe who Verlyn Flieger is
 * Glossed.


 *  Among the many poems in The Lord of the Rings are some fine examples... - "fine" strikes me as POV...let words speak for themselves
 * Removed.


 * I'd probably put the The road of life segment at the bottom as a nice way to finish the article
 * Moved it down there.


 *  Another large theme, in both.. - "large" strikes me as an odd usage...
 * Removed.

An interesting read and in good shape. Am wondering whether the sections are a bit small and numerous - if any can be combined might be good for flow.. ..Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:29, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Merged two sections in the Rohan chapter. The others seem to work well, each corresponding to a subsidiary article for further information. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:38, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay...nothing else to complain about....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:31, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Good to hear! Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:50, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Comments Support from Mirokado
I have a couple of questions: --Mirokado (talk) 23:13, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Trolls
 * 'Noting that Tolkien compares them to beasts as they "came striding up, roaring like beasts ... bellowing", she observes that they "remain wordless warriors, like Grendel", although they are sentient, with intelligence and a single language, unlike the varied tongues of Tolkien's orcs.' I didn't understand this at all, are they wordless or do they have a single language?
 * Clarified. In The Lord of the Rings they never speak; in The Hobbit they use the common speech (represented as English). Tolkien regretted that early decision, as having language implied to him that they had souls and were not simply monstrous beasts. He never fully resolved the matter, which is discussed further in Troll (Middle-earth). It's probably off-topic for this article.
 * Thanks for the detailed reply ( I've corrected the troll link above ). The article is now clear in referring to The Return of the King and I agree that details of how the concept evolved are off-topic here. The further information link to Troll (Middle-earth) is there for the interested reader to follow. I may have a detailed look at that article one quiet evening... --M
 * Elegaic tone
 * "The Lord of the Rings, especially its last two books in The Return of the King": two books? one book?
 * The Lord of the Rings is in 6 books, which are printed in either 1 or 3 volumes. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:41, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There is no other mention in this article of the separation into six books, so this is a bit confusing even if correct. Perhaps change to: "The Lord of the Rings, especially in its last part The Return of the King", this provides all the information without any distraction about different presentations. --Mirokado (talk) 14:11, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Support: thanks for the quick response! A well-written, well-sourced article. --Mirokado (talk) 14:41, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Source review — Pass
References
 * #5: What does "#142 to Robert Murray" mean?
 * Edited to "Letter", added date. The book is a selection of Tolkien's letters.


 * #7: Is 192ff an illustration?
 * No; said 192–193.


 * #12: No need to use the sfn citation on this one, since the entire work is being cited.
 * Noted.


 * #17: "book 1," or "book I"? What about linking it like this: "book I, ch. 2"?
 * Done.


 * #19: Is this a chapter by Evans in a book by Clark?
 * Yes, reformatted as such.
 * Are you intentionally citing the entire chapter? --Usernameunique (talk) 02:12, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, it's all relevant to the article but I've narrowed the page range for the paragraph cited.


 * #24: Ditto re 5/V. And why is the title of the chapter relevant for the citation?
 * Fixed, and removed.


 * #26: What does "#187 to H. Cotton Minchin, April 1956" mean?
 * Edited to "Letter".


 * #28: Is the entire work being cited here, or just a part? If the latter, the page numbers should be given. "Article 4" doesn't add anything, since it's in the full citation, too (i.e., it appears to be "Article 4" in that issue of the journal).
 * Done.


 * #29: Ditto re 3/III. And why is the title of the chapter relevant for the citation?
 * Fixed, and removed.


 * #39: What does "40ff" mean? What does "Tolkien and the True Hero" mean?
 * Fixed as for #19, this is a chapter by Clark in his own book.

Sources
 * Clark 2000: Can Greenwood link to Greenwood Publishing Group? Publisher location missing.
 * Linked, location added.


 * Fawcett 2014: This should use the cite thesis template. And I feel obliged to ask what makes this a reliable source?
 * Formatted. Fawcett wrote a serious and considered thesis, supervised by the scholar of English literature Robert Maslen and the philologist Jeremy Smith.


 * Flieger 2014: The editors need to be in separate paramaters: "editor1-last = "; "editor1-first = "; "editor2-last = "; "editor2-first = ". Then, I'd suggest using the 'name-list-style = amp" parameter.
 * Formatted.


 * Hall 2005: What makes this reliable?
 * Alaric Hall, philologist, directs the Institute for Medieval Studies, Leeds. His thesis was on Elves in Anglo-Saxon England.


 * Lee & Solopova 2005: Suggest using the "name-list-style = amp" parameter.
 * Done.


 * Liuzza 2013: Broadview Press can take a link. Publisher location missing.
 * Linked, location added.


 * Nagy 2003: Routledge can take a link. Publisher location missing. Does "Part IV, ch. 15" add anything important?
 * Linked, location added, used pages only.


 * Reynolds 2021: What makes this reliable?
 * Reynolds has written on Tolkien for over 20 years, and has edited the Tolkien Society's journal Mallorn. Her article is reliably cited.


 * Shippey 2001: Publisher location missing.
 * Added.


 * Shippey 2005: "Third ed." (spelled out) is inconsistent vs. "2nd ed." (not spelled out) above.
 * Fixed.


 * Tolkien 1955: What is the "(published 1987)" indicating? Was it not published in 1955?
 * Removed. First edition used.


 * Tolkien 1983: Ditto. What happened in 1983 and what happened in 1997?
 * Ditto.


 * Is there a reason Tolkien 1954a doesn't mention The Lord of the Rings, as do Tolkien 1954 and Tolkien 1955? --Usernameunique (talk) 02:16, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Fixed.

looked at. --Usernameunique (talk) 09:41, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Two more comments above. As to Hall 2005 (ref #12) and Evans 2000 (ref #19), you could put the full cites in "References" if you wish, as the short cites don't really do anything—they refer to the entire works, not to limited parts of the works. With that said, I'll leave that one up to you. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:18, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Fixed those two. Hall 2005 is a short article. I've limited the page range for Evans 2000. So I think we're complete here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:11, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks good. --Usernameunique (talk) 08:48, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

HF - support
Will review this one, either on tomorrow or the day after. Hog Farm Talk 05:46, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, will likely be about another 24 hours before I can get to this - have to travel early tomorrow morning, can't stay up to look at this as much as I'd like to. Hog Farm Talk 04:06, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry this took so long - was busier than expected
 * No worries.


 * I know it's essentially the same meaning, but that the article translates the Beowulf quote as both "demon-corpses" and "devil-corpses", both cited to Shippey (one in body and one in caption). Since they're both sourced to Shippey, does he use both equally or prefer one translation over the other?
 * He seems to prefer "demon" in the texts cited, so let's run with that.


 * "or byrnie" - link to Byrnie (redirect to hauberk), since it's not a familiar term?
 * Linked.


 * " His trolls share some of Grendel's attributes, such a" - recommend "Tolkien's trolls ..." here, as the most recent person "he" could refer to in this passage is Beowulf
 * Done.


 * Sources look fine
 * Thanks.

Good work here, anticipate supporting. Hog Farm Talk 04:43, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, all done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 18:42, 13 December 2021 (UTC)