Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Beth Hamedrash Hagadol (Manhattan, New York)


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:41, 15 November 2008.

Beth Hamedrash Hagadol (Manhattan, New York)

 * Nominator(s): Jayjg (talk)

Currently a Good Article, this comprehensive and well-referenced article on a Lower East Side congregation has recently been improved, and I believe now meets the FA criteria. Jayjg (talk) 05:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Images both images are free and seem to be ok with their licensing tags. Can the old picture be better asserted as to its publication date?  --M ASEM  05:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking a look. The Jewish encyclopedia (the source of the old picture) was published between 1901 and 1906. While I cannot pin down the specific publication date of this image any more exactly than that, I can say with confidence that it was published no later than 1906, and is in the public domain, as is the rest of the Jewish encyclopedia. Jayjg (talk) 05:34, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No real image problem on that end, I would just take a notch of effort to explain this situation in the image page just to be very clear that the work was published no later than 1906 and thus clearly PD. --M ASEM 18:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd already uploaded the image to Commons, but hadn't deleted the one here yet. I've deleted the local copy, and will try to clarify on the Commons page. Jayjg (talk) 01:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * Per the MOS, we don't put link titles in all capitals, even when the original is in all capitals.
 * http://pdberger.com/beth-hamedrash-hagadol/ deadlinks (exterior view in external links)
 * Otherwise sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking that out. I've fixed the link titles, and deleted the dead EL. Jayjg (talk) 01:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose (changed below) As an article on a listed building, historic landmark, currently unoccupied, the article is seriously deficient in material on the architecture, which is surely very easily available. I know you're not interested in architecture, but the comprehensiveness requirement mandates a decent section. The architects are only mentioned in the infobox, and the extraordinary style of the building is hardly adequately covered by just calling it Gothic Revival.  The precipitous decline in attendence in later years needs more coverage. Linking the "Welsh" chapel to "Welsh people" is not really good enough.  What would an "American chapel" be?  Posek is linked twice, but never explained; some other terms could usefully be explained. Cantor needs a link. The prose gets a bit dense at times. Are no more illustrations available? Johnbod (talk) 00:49, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the "posek" issue, thanks. Regarding the Welsh chapel, several sources, mention it, but none actually say what it means beyond that, so I'm not sure how to fix the issue. Regarding more illustrations, the building is padlocked, so it's hard to get in, but I'll try to get an interior shot. Also, I'd be happy to add more material about the architecture, but I'm not sure where to find it. Do you have any ideas? Jayjg (talk) 01:34, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * A link to Religion in Wales would be a start; "chapel" in Wales means a nonconformist church, probably Welsh Methodist. I don't know about books on NY architecture, except that they exist in superabundance. Try Dunlap's bibliography, or ask User:Wetman, who should know. Johnbod (talk) 01:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've changed the link. The books on New York architecture I've seen don't give much detail; I've added a little for now, and will ask Wetman if he knows of others. In general I find that there are very few even partially complete sources on Jewish congregations or their buildings, most sources have a few paragraphs at most, and usually much less. Jayjg (talk) 05:02, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Any chance of getting hold of:

Wolfe, Gerard R., Washington Mew Books, New York, New York, 1978 Israelowitz, Oscar, Dover, 1982 Israelowitz, Oscar, NY, 1992 Gruber, Samuel D., Rizzoli, NY, 2003 Wischnitzer, Rachel, Philadelphia, 1955. -The Wolfe surely must have decent coverage. What is the stone panel above the door? Is it a Hebrew inscription? Johnbod (talk) 02:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Synagogues of New York's Lower East Side (ISBN: 0814725597)
 * Synagogues of New York City : A Pictorial Survey in 123 Photographs (ISBN: 0486242315)
 * Synagogues of the United States - A Photographic and Architectural Survey.
 * American Synagogues, A Century of Architecture and Jewish Community
 * Synagogue Architecture in the United States History and Interpretation
 * I do cite Wolfe in the article, but a different book. However, I've found what might be an even better source, the NRHP registration form. You can find it here: Jayjg (talk) 03:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

All in all, look very good :) -- Nudve (talk) 15:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Architecture now covered adequately, and as well as sources allow, though a look at the Wolfe book sometime would probably improve it still further. Johnbod (talk) 03:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Fascinating article about well-known NY establishment. 68.37.3.247 (talk) 02:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Do you normally edit with a Wikipedia account? Jayjg (talk) 05:06, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks great. Very well cited. A few minor comments:
 * 1) In the intro, Ephraim Oshry is introduced as "noted", which is a potential peacock word. Can you replace it with a more factual description?
 * 2) The first sentence of the "Early history" section has four consequent citations, which seems like too much for such a short sentence. Are they all necessary?
 * 3) In the "Move to current building, Jacob Joseph" section, Joseph "lacked administrative skills", which is a bit POV. Maybe something like "had no administrative experience/training" would sound more neutral.
 * Thanks for your close read of the material, and kind words. I've fixed the issues you spotted. Jayjg (talk) 03:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Support The material on the architecture is certainly interesting but more important I think is the account of different rabbis and changes in the membership - articles like this are critical elements of our coverage of the social history of Jews in New York. It appears to be accurate, NPOV compliant, well-sourced.  A fine article. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 16:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you; "covering the social history of Jews in New York" is a nice turn of phrase. Jayjg (talk) 03:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Support looks like a pretty good article to me .-Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:28, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Jayjg (talk) 03:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Very nicely done. Any chance of pics of any persons mentioned? I know it's a bit obscure, but I'd love to see them if they exist and are obtainable. IronDuke  15:09, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I know there's at least one picture of Joseph, here, but I don't have a free license. Jayjg (talk) 06:15, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Support, no visible concerns from what I can see; seems to make all the basic requirements. Good job. Khoikhoi 08:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Jayjg (talk) 02:30, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Support Comments - Yohhans talk 05:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * Beth Hamedrash Hagadol (also Beth Hamidrash Hagadol or Beth Hamedrash Hagodol or Beth Midrash Hagadol) is an Orthodox congregation which was, for over 120 years, located at in a historic synagogue building at 60-64 Norfolk Street in Manhattan, New York, on the Lower East Side. - "At in"?
 * I thought I fixed that already! Fixed now. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In the late twentieth century the congregation dwindled and was unable to maintain the building, which had been damaged by storms and fires, and despite some funding and grants, the structure was critically endangered. - Split this sentence, and remove "some".
 * Done. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * As of 2008[update] the Lower East Side Conservancy was trying to raise an estimated $4.5 million for repairs, with the intent of turning it into an educational center. - "Turning it into" &rarr; "converting".
 * Done. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The congregation moved frequently in its early years: in 1852 it was located at 83 Bayard Street, then at Elm and Canal, and from 1853 to 1856 in a hall at Pearl and Chatham[18]/Centre Streets. - That backslash format is odd.
 * Re-worded. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In addition, he ran a small food concession stand in the vestibule; mourners who came to recite kaddish could purchase a piece of sponge cake and small glass of brandy for ten cents. - Remove "in addition".
 * Removed. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * They attempted to re-create, in Beth Hamedrash, the kind of synagogue they had attended in Europe. - Not sure those commas are needed.
 * Commas are always a contentious matter of style. In this, and previous FACs, other editors have been encouraging me to add commas. I've removed them. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In 1859,[29] disagreement broke out between Ash and the synagogue's parnas (president), Joshua Rothstein,[9] over who had been responsible for procuring the Allen Street location,[30] and escalated into a conflict "over the question of official authority and 'honor'". - This is an example of the many sentences that are rather long and confusing. Try to break these long snakes into slightly shorter sentences, or alternatively (and more importantly), avoid excessive use of commas to improve prose flow. Some more examples:
 * Excess commas removed. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Men and women sat separately, the full service in the traditional prayer book was followed,[34] and the congregation still trained men for rabbinic ordination.
 * There the congregation's younger members gained greater control, and introduced some minor innovations; for example, changing the title of parnas to president, and in 1877 hiring a professional cantor, Judah Oberman, for $500 per year, in order to bring greater formality and decorum to the services[34] as well as to attract new members.
 * Designed in the Gothic Revival style by an unknown architect, its "characteristic features" included "the vertical proportions, pointed arch window openings with drip moldings, three bay facade with towers", and an interior that included "ribbed vaulting" and a "tall and lofty rectangular nave and apse.
 * As above, commas are a contentious matter of preference, with some editors preferring more, others preferring fewer. I've removed some more commas, and some sentences have been shortened. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Additionally, Talmud and Mishna study groups,[21] founded in the 1870s, were held both mornings and evenings. - Remove "additionally".
 * Another copyeditor told me to add it. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Less characteristic of the style are the plain squared tops, with square windows, of the two front towers; it may have originally been intended to complete these more appropriately. - Needs a source.
 * It has been completely re-worked by the editor who added it a couple of days ago. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * (or $300 per year — the following year a new cantor, Simhe Samuelson, would be hired for over three times as much, $1,000 a year). - Em dashes are unspaced.
 * Fixed. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll stop there, but the prose needs significant work. I strongly suggest you find a copyeditor to deal with the usage of commas and the length of sentences. It's an interesting article overall, though. Cheers, –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  16:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments. As mentioned, use of commas is always a contentious matter of personal preference, and other copyeditors have insisted I add them, so I feel I'm kind of being whip-sawed here. As you can see (above) the article has already been read by quite a few editors, and had a thorough copyediting, though more eyes are always welcome. Do you have any other specific issues with the prose? Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 03:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * True, the usage of commas is often a personal preference, but it's still possible to get excessive. In any event, I've striken my oppose for now, not because I'm convinced the article meets the criteria, but because I don't want to hold it up until I get a chance to review the rest of the article. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  04:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I really appreciate that, though it appears something went wrong with your strike-through. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 04:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Whoops, thanks for letting me know. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  04:35, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. Well written and comprehensive. Someone asked about the Welsh chapel. In case this is helpful, it seems to refer to an architectural style (as well as referring to chapels in Wales or built by the Welsh), namely a two-storey gable-end facade, often with three windows on the first floor and two on the ground floor. See e.g. Welsh Chapels by Anthony Jones, p. 59. There's a reference to that particular Welsh chapel here.  SlimVirgin  talk| edits 06:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think here it is a demoninational rather than architectural description. In Wales "chapel" is used as a demoninational term for nonconformists, especially Methodists, including as a descriptor of people. Johnbod (talk) 14:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments. The exact meaning of "Welsh chapel" is indeed mysterious; some sources, and editors, indicate it is a reference to religious practice, but the source you provide indicates it is an architectural style. Perhaps it was a mix of both. Unfortunately, regarding Beth Hamedrash Hagadol, the sources are frustratingly vague; they either state "Welsh chapel" or "old Welsh chapel", with no more detail. I've tried finding more information about this specific Welsh chapel, independent of Beth Hamedrash Hagadol, but with no luck. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 18:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Support: Well-sourced, well-written article that is a joy to read. -- Olve Utne (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Well written, has good sources, has image and is interesting to read.—  Ѕandahl  ♥  01:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Notes: there are several dab problems. Cantor, sexton, and the dab template in the lead is irregular since it doesn't dab another article, and doesn't allow for correct punctuation on the footnote.  I don't know how to fix it; hopefully someone will.  I'm not sure if that non-standard use of a dab works with WP:ACCESS; it may be worthwhile to inquire there.   Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.