Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Big Two-Hearted River/archive3


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by 10:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC).

Big Two-Hearted River

 * ''Nominator(s): Truthkeeper88, Ceoil

Third time around for this article about an Ernest Hemingway short story written when he was young and in good form, exhibiting his early and best modernist techniques. Many thanks to everyone who has worked on this: most especially to for helping at the end of the second try, and to  and, unfortunately both no longer editing, for prose help and advice. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:58, 26 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Support You have done a very good job. The article's prose, structure, and referencing are excellent.  My only suggestion is to add an infobox with a picture of the book. DavidinNJ (talk) 03:40, 1 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for reading and for the support. For a variety of reasons I prefer no infobox for this short story; I tried one at some point and it looks odd to have to have the book paired with the article, each with different titles. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:50, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Many thanks David. Ceoil (talk) 21:29, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Comments from George Ponderevo

I think this is pretty good. I haven't finished reading yet, but I came across this:
 * "Hemingway's descriptions of the Michigan landscape, which he would have been familiar to him as in his youth he summered at the family's Walloon Lake summer cottage in Northern Michigan". There's clearly something wrong there.


 * "That spring, before he began the story, a series of Cézanne watercolors were exhibited at Berheim-Jeune Gallery, about which Hemingway would write many years later in A Moveable Feast that he had been 'learning something from the painting of Cézanne that made writing simple true sentences far from enough to make the stories have the dimensions that I was trying to put in them. I think you need to take a leaf out of Hemingway's book and simplify that sentence/break it up. Not too fond of that "series ... were" either.


 * "Carlos Baker views the stories of In Our Time as a remarkable achievements for a young writer."


 * Hi George, thanks for catching these - I think all fixed now. I've tried simplifying the long sentence; let me know if it works. Whenever I try to take a leaf from Hemingway, I end of up with choppy staccato prose - and then I lose perspective, so ... Anyway, thanks too for taking the time to read and for the copyedits. Much appreciated. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:51, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Support Comments, leaning to support : I supported promotion at the last FAC, since when the article has been further worked on. My overall impression, that this is a thoughtful and comprehensive account of an important work in 20th century American literature, has not change, but on rereading I gave picked up a few relatively minor issues and quibbles:
 * I am not completely familiar with punctuation usage in American English, but it seems to me that in the first line, a comma is definitely needed after "Hemingway".
 * "He became friends with and influenced by..." reads awkwardly: "was influenced by"?
 * "In 1923, he was first published with a slim volume titled Three Stories and Ten Poems, followed the next year by another collection..." Again there is awkwardness here, chiefly around "he was first published with". I suggest recasting the sentence: "The year 1923 saw his first published work, a slim volume titled Three Stories and Ten Poems,  followed the  next year..." etc
 * The First World War needs to be mentioned as the context for Hemingway's stint as an ambulance driver. Likewise, "July 8" needs a year (1918, presumably)
 * "When asked her opinion of the draft in October..." This is presumably 1925, which needs to be clear as the last year mentioned was 1919.
 * "waiting for a response from America" sounds a bit portentious; from his New York publisher, presumably?
 * Maybe "repeatedly" rather than "again and again"?
 * He "summered" at the family's "summer cottage". Is there a way that could be expressed without the repetition?
 * "Hemingway is fundamentally an American nature writer according to Hemingway scholar Susan Beegel." Would be better phrased as " According to Hemingway scholar Susan Beegel, Hemingway is fundamentally an American nature writer." Or, if left as it is, place a comma after "nature writer".
 * "more characteristic in Hemingway's early fiction" → "most characteristic in Hemingway's early fiction" (or leave out more/most, and say "characteristic of")
 * In the "Iceberg" section, as you have reintroduced Pound as "Ezra Pound", you might reintroduce Joyce as "James Joyce" to avoid possible identification problems. ("Joyce" could, for example, be a lady friend)
 * A very minor quibble, but I think "minute to minute" should read "minute-to-minute"
 * "observes a detachedly described climactic event": That doesn't sound right. Maybe he "observes and describes with detachment a climactic event"?
 * "that painters work" → "that painter's work"
 * "in shock by his war experience" → "in shock from his war experience"
 * "a bird that in mythology symbolizes "halcyon days, peace and tranquility". If the quoted phrase is Johnson's, perhaps the "Johnson says" should be brought forward?
 * Personally I would prefer "quoted" to "qtd" in the citations.

When these have been addressed I will be happy to reinstate my support. An attractive and engaging article. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Brian for the comments. Will get to them after work tonight and tomorrow. I very much appreciate the time in revisiting and finding these. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:09, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * These points were all good catches and I think I've fixed them all. Regarding the "qtd" vs. "quoted": the most recent version of The MLA Style Manual – used in the US for humanities – has "qtd" but with a full stop. I like to follow that style as closely as possible for a bunch of reasons, probably not worth detailing here. I'll go through and add the period to the "qtd" throughout but can't get to it immediately because a bit of a vision issue that I have to wait to clear. Thanks again. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed so that "qtd" is now "qtd." Truthkeeper (talk) 21:18, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * All my concerns now addressed. I shall be happy to see it promoted and have upgraded to full support. Brianboulton (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for the close reading and for the support. Truthkeeper (talk) 03:41, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * many thanks for these brian. Apologies TK for not being round mid week to help. Ceoil (talk) 11:59, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Support. Having read through the whole thing now I like this article very much, and the nominators are to be congratulated on producing such a fine piece of work. Some of Brian's points above still need to be addressed of course, but I'm confident they will be addressed and I don't see any of them as show stoppers. George Ponderevo (talk) 22:08, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the support and the kind words. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Sources and images - spotchecks not done
 * File:Ernest_Hemingway_1923_passport_photo.TIF.jpg: source link appears broken
 * File:GertrudeStein_JackHemingway_Paris.jpg: first link is broken again (direct link is fine)
 * Check alphabetization of Sources
 * Be consistent in whether editor comes before or after title for "in..." entries. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:35, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks Nikkimaria. I've fixed these. On my browser the NARA link goes to the permanent record - I though that's how it should be? I removed one link that wasn't necessary and broken. Fixed the JFK Library link again. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:15, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support – I also supported at the previous FAC, and am glad to see that the article has been improved further since the last time. I saw a few minor issues and fixed them; otherwise the article appears FA-worthy to me. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:40, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks catching the errors and fixing and thanks for revisiting and supporting. Truthkeeper (talk) 02:46, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Note to delegates: I believe that Truthkeeper has temporarily left the project, and I think Ceoil may have done, too. Whether either will respond to further comments seems rather doubtful. I'm not sure what the protocol is in such cases, but for the record this nomination has four supports and, apparently, no outstanding issues on images and sources. Brianboulton (talk) 22:17, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Tks Brian -- yes, the checks/reviews and level of support are sufficient for promotion; I also note that some prose concerns I had last time have been dealt with. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:52, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 08:57, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.