Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bill McCann/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 21:04, 10 February 2018.

Bill McCann

 * Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

This article is about Bill McCann, a decorated soldier of World War I, a barrister, and a prominent figure in the military and ex-service community of South Australia during the interwar period. The article successfully went through GAN and Milhist A-Class review in July–August last year, and has been stable since, just waiting to have a run at FAC. All comments and suggestions gratefully received. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:37, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, as always, Nikki! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:02, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Support on prose Comments by Finetooth

 * I made minor copyediting changes to the article as listed here. Please revert any that you think are misguided. Below are further questions and suggestions.
 * They look great, particular thanks for editing out the passive voice (which I do have a tendency to fall into). I will get onto the rest of your comments shortly. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:02, 3 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Gallipoli campaign
 * ¶1 "During that period, the 10th Battalion suffered casualties of 13 officers and 453 men." – Would it be possible to say how many officers and men were in the battalion before these casualties or to render the losses in percentages?
 * Added and expanded footnote to cover it.


 * Western Front
 * ¶1 "...fight over the O.G.1 trench system..." - Link or explain O.G.1 trench system?
 * Added a note. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:16, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ¶3 "In February 1917 he was evacuated suffering from illness,..." – Slightly smoother as "Suffering from illness, he was evacuated in February 1917,..."?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:49, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ¶4 "...before being seconded to a training battalion..." – Link "seconded" to secondment?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:49, 3 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Interbellum and later life
 * ¶1 "McCann commenced studying as an articled clerk in December 1920, and married Mildred Southcott on 20 August 1921, there being two sons and one daughter from the union." – This sentence bothers me in two ways. The "with plus -ing" construction is awkward, and "from the union" seems anachronistic. Suggestion: " McCann commenced studying as an articled clerk in December 1920 and married Mildred Southcott on 20 August 1921; they had two sons and a daughter."
 * ¶1 "In 1921 he commenced..." – Replace "commenced" with "began" since the sentence before this one uses "commenced"?
 * ¶2 "...defended the status of Anzac Day as a public holiday against protests from the retail sector,..." – Why did the retail sector oppose the holiday?
 * ¶2 "...was a foundation member..." – Should that be "founding" rather than "foundation"?
 * ¶2 "When the National War Memorial design was being finalised, McCann strongly advocated for the inclusion of the names of all South Australians who were killed in World War I inside the memorial;..." – The sentence is a bit wordy, and the South Australians weren't killed inside the memorial. Suggestion: "As the memorial design neared completion, McCann strongly supported including the names of all South Australians killed in World War I;...".
 * ¶2 "...McCann sharply criticised the defence policy of the Federal Government, "[d]efence has been brought down to such a low point," he said, "that it is now an absurdity." – Can you add any specifics? What in particular was he objecting to? Too few soldiers? Too little training? Too little money? Outdated weapons?
 * ¶3 "the Unattached List" – Should that be linked or explained?
 * ¶6 "...resulted in his home being deliberately set alight." – Were the culprits ever identified or charged with arson? What was the extent of the damage to the house?
 * All done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 4 January 2018 (UTC)


 * General
 * Some images have alt text, but others don't. Concise alt text for all of them would be nice even if not required.
 * No dead URLs.
 * No disambiguation problems.
 * Duplicate links in the main text include University of Adelaide, 9th Battalion, counter-attack, and Anzac Day. I don't think you need the duplicates. I doubt that you need the three duplicates in the lead; they are the OBE, etc. in the first sentence, followed by Officer of the Order of the British Empire, etc., in the last.
 * alt text and duplinks fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:08, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * That's all. Finetooth (talk) 19:39, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * All done, . Thanks very much for your thorough copy-edit and other suggestions. Here are my edits. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:08, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Switching to support on prose. Finetooth (talk) 19:33, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Sources review
I can find nothing to quibble about! All sources in good order and of appropriate reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 13:17, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks Brian! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:50, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Support Comments by Ian
Recusing as coord, I copyedited as usual so pls let me know any concerns; outstanding points:
 * He attended various public schools then Adelaide High School -- sounds like Adelaide High is/was public too, so do we mean various primary schools before Adelaide High?
 * Yes, they were called public schools at the time, changed to primary and linked


 * and "was an inspiration to his men" -- can we attribute this quote inline?
 * Done.


 * he used three tanks to clear the area -- might seem pedantic but this makes it sound like he had three tanks attached to his company which I assume he didn't; can we say that he called upon the tanks from whoever it was that provided them?
 * added that they came from the 5th Tank Brigade and expanded the footnote


 * moving forward by "vigorous action and hard, confused fighting" -- these are Bean's words?
 * Yes.


 * Learning of difficulties due to German positions in Luc Wood -- wonder if we can elaborate on or be more explicit about the "difficulties", as the word sounds a bit odd to me in this context...
 * reworded.


 * clear the area. Along with flanking troops, McCann cleared -- can we avoid the "clear/ed" repetition?
 * Done.


 * In addition to the decorations previously mentioned, McCann was issued with the 1914–15 Star, British War Medal, and Victory Medal for his service during the war. -- I don't think we really need to mention medals that everyone on active service received; not too common in similar articles from memory.
 * included for completeness. I did the same with Raymond Leane, which went through FAC ok.


 * turned his hand to farming the previous month. He farmed at Truro and Manoora but was hampered by his war injuries, and abandoned farming in August -- do you think we could lose one of the "farmed/farming" instances?
 * Done.


 * McCann began studying as an articled clerk in December 1920, and married Mildred Southcott on 20 August 1921; they had two sons and a daughter. In 1921 he began an active association with the South Australian branch of the Returned Sailors' and Soldiers' Imperial League of Australia -- I'm not sure we need connect study and marriage in the same sentence; also can we pinpoint when in 1921 he joined RSSILA as that might influence where we put his marriage info...
 * Split sentence, the source isn't specific about when in 1921 he joined.


 * This led to public criticism by his potential political opponents -- I know we find him going into politics in the next para but this still caught me short; perhaps simpler to say he was subjected to public criticism and leave at that?
 * Done.
 * Now I check the ref, I'm not sure if one letter to the editor quite supports the idea of "public criticism" as I'd generally understand it -- did we lose another ref somewhere for this, as I can't see in the letter where the earlier bit about potential political opponents was supported either... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:52, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure how to integrate this into the article, but his critic wasn't just anyone, it was A. T. Saunders, well known public figure, an unofficial historian of SA, and a man who courted controversy. I'll have to dig around a bit more to see where that political enemies bit came from, I must have not added the source... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:14, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * , I think I must have conflated the two issues. What I was thinking of was the controversy over the RSSILA prez running for politics. I've added a sentence on that. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:46, 7 January 2018 (UTC)


 * His biographer described him -- have to admit that I think of a biographer as the author of a full-length work so would prefer to say "The Australian Dictionary of Biography described him", but happy to discuss...
 * Done.

Structure and comprehensiveness seem fine; I'll take Nikki's image review and Brian's source review as read. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:21, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * G'day, thanks for the review! All addressed, here are my edits. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:31, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Tks for prompt action, PM -- fine with all that except where indicated above. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:52, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * are you happy with my response above? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:07, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Tks for the ping, PM... All the queries above have been resolved satisfactorily, TBH I was just holding back and seeing if anyone else copyedited or commented because there were still one or two places I felt the prose could be improved but didn't really have any alternative wording in mind. Since nothing's happened in the meantime, I see no reason not to support -- it's a fine piece of work. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Support Comments by Frickeg
Don't know that I've ever participated in one of these before but I did want to make a few quick comments on the political stuff since that's my area. I believe I may have raised some of these points in the past but I can't find where that might have been. Great to see the article overall looking in such good shape.
 * Could do with some contextualising of Senator Elliott - or does this even need to be here? Senators (even out-of-state ones) helping out with local campaigns is pretty routine. What makes this notable?
 * I have added that they first met at Gallipoli, where Elliott had offered McCann a commission in his battalion.


 * Should give percentages of votes in addition to (or instead of) actual numbers. Should also indicate swing from the last election, mention that the seat was extremely marginal (Price won by fewer than 200 votes in 1928), and contextualise the election as a nationwide Labor landslide.
 * Add a bit of additional context.


 * There seems to be some interesting stuff in Trove about him being sought out as a candidate - presumably his candidacy was something of a boon for the Nationalists, and the sources seem to mention both PM Bruce and Charles Hawker were involved in convincing him to stand. Could be worth a sentence or two.
 * The Nationalists seemed optimistic about his chances, but they would be wouldn't they. Clearly they had not grasped the reality of the swing to Labor. I did have a look for more info on his nomination, but whilst Bruce sent him a telegram when he nominated, and Hawker nominated for Wakefield at the same time, I couldn't find an article that explained how McCann was convinced to run, or who by.

Best of luck with the rest of the process. Frickeg (talk) 00:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments! Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:26, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Great work, all looks good. (I found the reason I thought Hawke was involved - an article on Trove titled "FEDERAL ELECTION LIBERAL CANDIDATE FOR WAKEFIELD MR. C A. S. HAWKER SELECTED LIEUTENANT-COLONEL McCANN TO STAND FOR BOOTHBY", which had a line break after "selected" that I didn't observe.) Frickeg (talk) 07:19, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, I almost made the same mistake when I was trawling through Trove! Thanks again, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:24, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * G'day for the benefit of the FAC coords, could you clarify if you support this article's promotion? Cheers, Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 03:05, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Apologies - don't really know how all this works! Although I haven't looked at the article in detail, for the parts that I commented on I support promotion. Frickeg (talk) 06:22, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That's how we generally do it. Some reviewers only support on prose, for example, so if you qualify your support in any way that is always fine. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:40, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Comments and support by Gerda
Thank you for another good article on the way to even better, about someone "directing and encouraging his men, and his fine example inspired all under his command"! Only minor points:

Western front
 * It's possibly just me who wouldn't know what a "scouting, sniping and intelligence officer" is?
 * Added links.


 * "In addition to the decorations previously mentioned," - that seems redundant.
 * Done.

General: I had twice to remember who "he" or "his" was after talking for some time about other people or groups. The lead has a litany of sentences that begin with "he", - perhaps that could be broken a bit. No reason to hold back support. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:14, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I tweaked a couple. Thanks for taking a look Gerda! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:51, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

this one looks good to go, can I have a dispensation to nominate a fresh one please? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:03, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Sarastro (talk) 21:04, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.