Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bob Mann (American football)/archive1

Bob Mann (American football)

 * Nominator(s): Gonzo_fan2007 and Cbl62 17:36, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Bob Mann was an American football player in the late 1940s and early 1950s. He was a star end (wide receiver in today's terminology) for the University of Michigan, where he teamed up with future Hall of Famer Len Ford to form a dynamic pass-catching duo. He entered the NFL with the Detroit Lions, where he played for two seasons. After a salary dispute, he was released and signed with the New York Yanks (not to be confused with the baseball team), although he never played for the team in the regular season. After being released by the Yanks, he claimed NFL owners blackballed him by all agreeing to not sign him. After a few months, the Green Bay Packers signed Mann, where he would play parts of five seasons until a knee injury ended his career. Mann would go on to become a lawyer in the Detroit area until he died in 2006.

The quick overview above would make it seem like Mann was just another college football star who played in the NFL for a few seasons before professional football became what it is today. However, Mann's legacy goes far and above his statistics and physical abilities. Mann was a black player in football during a time of great racial prejudices. He broke the color barrier for both the Lions and Packers, he was cut by the Lions for not taking a pay cut (and possibly for supporting a boycott by the black community of a beer that he was a spokesperson for), even though he led the NFL in receiving yards the prior season. He was (arguably) blackballed by the NFL for his race and for not agreeing to take the pay cut from the Lions. Then he played for Green Bay, a town at the time that had only a handful of black residents. He has been called a pioneer for the dignified way he handled himself is such difficult situations.

This article has a fun history. Cbl62, as a fan of the University of Michigan, expanded this article in 2010! For the next 8 years, it received only a handful of minor edits. Then Gonzo_fan2007 came across it in 2018 and as a Green Bay Packers fan, they decided to work on it. In 2019, we decided to collaborate on this article and bring it to GA-status, and then, hopefully, to FA-status. This is Gonzo_fan2007's second FAC (after Packers sweep) and Cbl62's 1st FAC. The article received a pre-FAC review and WP:NFL was given a chance to review it, with at least one editor reviewing it. Thanks to, , and for your help in developing this article. Thank you all for your time in reviewing this nomination. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  and Cbl62 (talk) 17:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Support by Nick-D
I know almost nothing about American football, so am coming at this with what could be optimistically termed fresh eyes. Here are my comments:
 * "Mann transferred to Michigan in 1944, with his father hoping that he would attend the school's medical program" - which school?
 * The University of Michigan. I clarified this. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 01:49, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * " Mann took a year off for military service" - this sounds rather odd. People volunteered or were drafted for the duration of the war, so didn't take time off from their civilian lives.
 * It is somewhat colloquial language in sports for the era. I reworded. No source mentioned whether he was drafted or volunteered. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 01:49, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Mann left the university for a year to serve" still is unlikely to be correct - I very much doubt that the US Navy was offering one year periods of enlistment. Nick-D (talk) 07:10, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The key here is that his college "career" was delayed while he served in the military. Both sources for this statement just note that "he served" from 1944 until the end of the war. Nothing about volunteering or draft. I reworded a little bit more, let me know if this satisfies your concern. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 15:28, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Do we know what he did in the Navy?
 * No source has mentioned this., have you seen this mentioned in any sources? « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 01:49, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * White newspapers of the day tended to give minimal coverage to military service by African Americans. Some of the old African-American press is available online, but I've been unable to find details there of his military service. Cbl62 (talk) 21:13, 28 June 2020 (UTC)


 * "McMillin thought it would be best for everyone to not incite any further racial issues in the city." - this is euphemistic (e.g. what racial attitudes are being referred to and why did McMillan think this?). Can clearer language be used?
 * I deleted the sentence. It doesn't say much more than the previous sentence. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 01:49, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * " Despite a good training camp" - I'm not sure what this means. Should it be "Despite performing well during the team's training camp" or similar?
 * Yes. Reworded. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 01:49, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * " John Rauch, a rookie quarterback, told Mann that he had been ordered not to throw to him." - do we know who issued this order, and why?
 * I think I addressed this. It was the Yanks coach, and Mann understood it to be racially motivated. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 19:40, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "He claimed that, despite leading the NFL in receiving yards in 1949, the Lions had asked him to take a 20 percent pay cut." - is 'claimed' needed here given that this is stated as a fact earlier in this article?
 * I changed to "asserted". I am trying to make the point that these were Mann's claims, but I kind of see your point. Let me know if this makes sense or if it should be reworded still. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 01:49, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm still not sure why this is being presented as anything other than a fact? Surely Mann was correct in stating this? Nick-D (talk) 07:10, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean. The pay cut part is fact, the claims after that were assertions. I revised it . « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 15:28, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "He married in 1956" - the article earlier describes him as being married in 1949?
 * Welp, this may take a second. I have two sources, one saying "his wife Dorothy" in 1949, and one saying he he had a wife named Vera who he had been married to for 45 years in 2002. Let me do some digging. In the meantime,, let me know if you are good with the other responses and if you have any other comments. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 20:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I found a reference in Jet (magazine) saying that him and his first wife Dorothy were divorced. No clear timeframes on the marriage though. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 20:38, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Can anything more be said about his legal career?
 * Honestly, we have tried but the sources just aren't out there. You can see a little of this discussion on tha talk page in the various reviews. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 01:49, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Just to check, but have you checked online archives of newspapers in Detroit? He might well have been the type of lawyer who doesn't get in the media though (e.g. by only handling routine matters) Nick-D (talk) 07:00, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, about 3/4 of our sources are articles from a fairly diverse number of newspapers. There just isn't much said about his later life and career. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 19:24, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, fair enough. Nick-D (talk) 07:10, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Have sports historians and/or historians of desegregation in the US written much about Mann? Given his pioneering status and the barriers he faced despite being an elite player the amount of analysis and discussion in the article feels a little thin. Nick-D (talk) 00:40, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think this really speaks to the times. There just wasn't much written about him at the time (racially speaking). What was written is included in the article. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 19:24, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , I have resolved or responded to all your comments. Let me know what you think. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 20:38, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Those changes all look good, and I'm very pleased to support this nomination on prose, noting again that I can't comment on comprehensiveness, etc, due to my near total ignorance of American football (and all other kinds of football other than Australian rugby league for that matter!). Nick-D (talk) 08:10, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Appreciate the review, . « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:37, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Image review—pass
All images appear to be free and correctly licensed. <b style="color: White">b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 00:46, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks . « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 20:07, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Support from TRM
WikiCup review That's a first pass. As noted, I am certainly no expert, so I may have misunderstood some things. Having said that, if I have, maybe some of our other non-expert readers will too... Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!&#33;!&#33;) 12:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know why "professional" is in the pipe to American football.  There are lots of codes of football with professionals.
 * This came from a discussion at WP:NFL. Basically, MOS:OPENPARABIO says a person's nationality should be in the opening paragraph. NFL bios routinely say "Person was an American football player." In this case, "American" refers to the type of football, not nationality. And since non-Americans play in the NFL, the sentence would have to say "Person was an American American football player" or something similar. I am definitely open to suggestions, but this was my way of clarifying that "American" was his nationality". « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "l football player in " why not "footballer who played in"?
 * Changed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * As a non-expert, I'm mildly bemused by terms like "receiving yardage", "undrafted", "yards per reception" etc.
 * I linked a few of these, but this is somewhat par for the course. The NFL uses this terminology, so not sure how I could get around it. We only have an article on Reception (gridiron football). « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Surprised to see that List of National Football League annual receiving yards leaders isn't linked here in the prose.
 * Linked in lead and body. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "a lawyer and practiced law " repetitive, probably don't need "law".
 * Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The NFL.com link in the infobox is dead.
 * Fixed. NFL.com likes to change their url linking every few years for fun. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "Hampton's final game" of the season or ever?
 * Clarified. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "with his father hoping" -> "where his father hoped"
 * Changed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "African-American players" that wasn't hyphenated in the lead.
 * Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "ended up being" not really encyclopedic in tone.
 * Changed to "was" « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "he caught three passes for 74 yards and two touchdowns and als..." and and run-ons, presumably something like "he caught three passes for 74 yards, scored two touchdowns and als" would be marginally better?
 * Changed to "while also gaining 26 yards on two end-around runs" « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Similar, following sentence follows a near-identical structure/wording so it's got the same problem and is repetitive.
 * I reworded the whole sentence. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "a nickname as the "fifth man" in Michigan's backfield" I suppose this is meaningful to those "in the know" but to me it's meaningless.
 * Explained a little.  « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Is it "at left end" or "at the left end"?
 * "at left end". It was a position back then, basically lining up as an End (gridiron football) on the left side. I link "end" in the first instance of "left end". « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * East-West needs an en-dash in this context.
 * Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Any reason Associated Press isn't linked?
 * It is already linked in the first instance of its use "Mann was also selected by the Associated Press as a first-team end for its All-Big Nine team" and in each ref. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "America, and Michigan coach " I would stop after America, new sentence then relating to his acclamation from coach and subsequent induction into that state's HoF.
 * Revised. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * " receive feelers " is that encyclopedic?!!
 * Changed to "interest". « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "(NFL).[25] In April 1948, Mann signed with the Detroit Lions of the NFL;[26] his first NFL " NFL overdose, perhaps mix it up a little to reduce reptition.
 * Removed the last NFL, as unnecessary. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "He was also hired to a sales position..." curious, so  this wasn't a fully  professional football career at this stage?
 * It was very common back in the day for AmFootball players to have second jobs, especially ones related to the NFL (in this case, working for a beer company that was owned by the Lions' president. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "became the first African American to play for the Lions" the source doesn't back that up. "one of the Detroit Lions’ first black players".
 * Reworded to match the source more closely (basically including Mel Groomes in the discussion). « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "Although team owners denied the existence of a ban, no African American had played in the NFL between 1933 and 1945" very close paraphrasing to the source: "Although team owners denied the existence of a color ban, not one black player had played in the NFL between 1933 and 1945".
 * Reworded. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "African American players. Even after African American players" repetitive.
 * I reworded a bit, but not sure how I can get around not having "African Americans" in each sentence. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "began appearing"-> "began to appear".
 * Reworded based on the previous comment. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "Mann appeared in all 12 games for the Lions," + in the 1948 season...
 * Added. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's worth noting how Detroit did that season, coming bottom of the Western Division.
 * Added. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "He had played two years of college basketball at Hampton" who? Mann?  We know.  Owens?  Not clear.
 * Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "not be able to play in the game.[2]..." no reaction from Mann? Or any of his teammates?
 * The source just notes the event and says that Mann doesn't dwell on the racial issues that he faced in that era. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "Mann objected and held out" and "Mann became a hold out when" repetitive use or are they different things?
 * Reworded, removing "held out". « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Link quarterback, free agent etc.
 * Linked. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "October 1950, Mann was jobless. At the end of October 1950," repetitive.
 * Reworded. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "Despite leading the NFL in receiving yards in 1949, the Lions had asked him to take a 20 percent pay cut." haven't you already said all this?
 * Reworded so that this sentence is more of a callback to the previous explanation of the pay cut. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "colluded to avoid signing", "colluded to avoid signing" repetitive.
 * Reworded. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "ending his suit against the NFL" was it a condition or did he just decide that because he'd been signed the misdemeanours of the past were forgotten?
 * The couple sources that mention this just note that the suit ended. Speculating, since he was signed he no longer had claims against the NFL for blackballing, so it was dropped. Let me know if you think I need to reword this. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "becoming the first African-American to play for the team.[7][53] It was later determined that Walt Jean, an offensive lineman for the Packers in the 1920s, was African American.." well, odd.  I guess "what was thought to be" should be in there really, this is an encyclopedia so we shouldn't make an assertion to then immediately nullify it.
 * Reworded to clarify he was the first "known" African American to play for the team. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Can we link the 1950 and 1951 NFL seasons in the prose? And the subsequent ones?
 * I think I got them all. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "three or less " fewer.
 * Changed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "2–9–1" what does that mean to a non-expert?
 * Explained using Abbr template. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * " racial diversity, Mann's time with the Packers was largely free of overt racial incidents.[69] However, racial " racial x3 in quick succession, repetitive.
 * Removed the first " racial". « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "Green Bay Gazette" this was called something different last time and already linked.
 * Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I believe I have either addressed or responded to all of your comments above. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No worries, happy with the above and just removed one instance of overlinking. Good work, good luck. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!&#33;!&#33;) 08:54, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * As always, thanks for your thorough review . « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:09, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No problem, I'm just here for the cookies! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!&#33;!&#33;) 14:10, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support by Kosack
A few very minor points, the two very thorough reviews above have already covered pretty much everything for me. Kosack (talk) 14:29, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * End is linked to a redirect in the lead, this seems unnecessary when you're actually piping in the first place.
 * Done. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 19:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Worth linking segregated to Racial segregation?
 * Done. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 19:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, link University of Michigan?
 * Done. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 19:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "Although it was unclear why he was not being thrown", might be a terminology issue, but should this be thrown to?
 * Done. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 19:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Detroit is over linked in the Legal career and personal life section.
 * All I see is Detroit linked in the first sentence of the paragraph. Detroit College of Law is also linked. Let me know if I am missing something. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 19:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * My error, I mistakenly thought I saw Detroit linked before this. Kosack (talk) 12:56, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review, all your comments were addressed or responded to. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 19:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No further issues for me, happy to support. Kosack (talk) 12:56, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review, . « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Coord note
Adding this to the urgents list and also for a source review. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:15, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks ! « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:17, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi, based on the reviews above we have consensus for promotion but when I looked over the lead I couldn't help feeling there's room for improvement. I realise articles on footballers have their challenges but "football player who played" in the first sentence, followed by "played" and "playing" in the next two sentences seemed a bit much -- is there no way to vary this? Also "After not being drafted in the 1948 NFL Draft" seems a bit clumsy to me. I haven't looked at the rest. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:20, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for the comments. I removed/replaced two instances of "play" from the lead, but as you mentioned, it is a challenge because there isn't an easy synonym for "play". "Engage", "participate", etc all sound clumsy and abnormal for American football. I changed the second sentence to After not being selected in the 1948 NFL Draft, which seems to be on par with other FAC's (Scott Zolak, Tyrone Wheatley). Happy to address any other comments you have. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 13:56, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Tks for your prompt response. I guess "not being selected" is better but still... Do we even need to know this in the lead, could we not just drop that clause? Further, last I looked MOS tends to frown on single-paragraph subsections and while some might be justified, there are quite a few in this article. At the very least I think you could safely make New York Yanks section just the two paras, without the Charges of blackballing subheader. Leave the rest for now, I'll try and take another look tomorrow. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:35, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , I dropped a couple single-paragraph sub-sections, as recommended. Regarding the draft status, WikiProject National Football League/Player pages format (which, admittedly is an info page) recommends having the player's draft status in the lead. Of the 5 NFL player WP:FAs from the draft era, four mention their draft status in the lead (Otto Graham being the exception, although he never played for the team that drafted him). At this point, I would prefer to keep it, as it provides a natural transition from college to professional career. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:23, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Tks, how do you feel about "After missing [or even "missing out on"] selection in the 1948 NFL Draft"? I won't hold up promotion though, your call... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:50, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks . I think I will stay with the original text; it matches more closely with the standard language the NFL uses when discussing the draft.. I do want to point out that a source review hasn't been completed for this FAC. Is that something that needs to occur before promotion? « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Well wouldn't you know, I'd overlooked that, even with Ealdgyth's reminder above -- I spent some time double-checking whether a spotcheck was required but not the source review in general., could I trouble you to have a look at this? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , the source review has been completed below. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 21:54, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , just wanted to follow-up and note that the source review has been complete. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 20:39, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep, I got quite a few messages the last couple of days, only now able to get to this... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:39, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

 * Which stats in the infobox are meant to be cited to which source?
 * NFL.com, removed the other to clarify. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:15, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It looks like that source doesn't include date of death, and the exact date is not present in the article body. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:28, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , when you said "stats" in your original comment, I thought you were referring to Mann's football statistics. I have added his full death date to the last section of the article and to the lead. Ref 74 supports the death date. All the other information in the infobox is supported by multiple sources in the article. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 13:30, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Quotes should be cited in the lead even if repeated later
 * Reworded to drop the quotes. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:15, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Fn2: the title here doesn't match that in the source, unless there's a different title on the first page?
 * See comment below about Source 12 and 13. This is the same thing. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:17, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean, could you explain? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:28, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Source #2 is another news article that is split on two pages, with the first part cited separately (source 29) from the second part, similar to source 12 and 13. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:33, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not objecting to them being split into two cites. But in this particular case it appears that the second part has a different title, so if you're going to split them into two cites the second part should have the title specific to that part. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:39, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , it is my understanding that a title on the second page of an article is considered a subhead and not the title of the article. Each article can only have one title, which is why I kept the article's title from the first page and added "Part 1" and "Part 2". Let me know if there is an MOS or guideline for this. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 22:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , does my explanation work for you? I have three sources in the article that are newspaper clippings where the article goes from one page to another. They are all set-up the same way, with two citations using the main title with Part 1 and Part 2 appended to the end of the title. I haven't been able to find any guideline on how this is usually handled, so I am hoping that this solution works. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 22:32, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That's fine. Looks like we're still pending a source for date of death as per above. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:30, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure I know what you are referring to . His date of death is sourced and I don't see any comments above about his death date?? « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 04:33, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * See my response on point 1 - it's not in the NFL source used for the infobox AFAICT, and the exact date is not in the article body. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:09, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * FN9 credits Newspapers.com but is from a different source
 * Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:15, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Fns 12 and 13: when the in-source location is more than pages, at is more appropriate
 * I disagree, separating out each page of a newspaper article makes it easier to verify the information and is the only way that each page of the article can be easily archived. Let me know what you think. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:17, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't understand your argument. You could easily present the information currently presented, just using a different parameter. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:28, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you mind providing me an example of what it would look like. I guess I am not understanding how that parameter would be used in a way that would allow me to link directly to two separate Newspaper.com links, plus two separate Wayback machine archive urls. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 17:33, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Currently part one is
 * All I'm suggesting you change is
 * And then the same with the other, keeping them as separate refs. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:39, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that was my bad. I was confused at what you were asking. I have made the change. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 22:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * And then the same with the other, keeping them as separate refs. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:39, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that was my bad. I was confused at what you were asking. I have made the change. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 22:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Fn18 is missing agency credit
 * Added. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:15, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Fn42 should use pp and an endash
 * Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:07, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * FN57: title doesn't match source. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:16, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:15, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review. I have addressed or responded to all your comments. Let me know what you think.  « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:17, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Should now be good to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:38, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review! « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 21:54, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 23:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)