Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Boulonnais horse/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 17:43, 10 October 2012.

Boulonnais horse

 * Nominator(s): Dana boomer (talk) 16:32, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Another French draft horse breed, again expanded with the significant help of French editor User:Tsaag Valren with regard to sources and translations. This went through a GA review several years ago, and was then significantly expanded earlier this year. I think it should be good to go for FA review! Thanks in advance for your comments, Dana boomer (talk) 16:32, 12 September 2012 (UTC)


 * A good article that deserves to be featured.--Lucky102 (talk) 16:42, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Image check - OK. All images are public domain and have author and source information. 4 CC-tagged and 1 PD-1923 (fixed that one with US-tag). GermanJoe (talk) 18:47, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, GermanJoe! Dana boomer (talk) 20:39, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * FN1: suggest using "at" parameter rather than page
 * Very cool! I didn't even know that parameter existed... - DB


 * Be consistent in whether you include locations for books
 * Done, I think. - DB


 * Check that all foreign-language sources are notated as such - FN10, for example, isn't
 * Done, I think. I did miss rather a lot of them, didn't I ? :) - DB


 * FN22: publisher? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:14, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't find one for this book, and WorldCat doesn't list one... Thoughts? - DB
 * According to this it's "Cosson". Nikkimaria (talk) 22:11, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I'm an idiot... Thanks, I've added that in. Dana boomer (talk) 12:57, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you, as always, for the source review, Nikki! At least I didn't have any doubled periods this time. :) Dana boomer (talk) 20:39, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Dana boomer. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 15 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * "contributed to the problem in inbreeding." might be better as "contributed to the problem of inbreeding."
 * "consumers considered it to have some of the best meat available", possibly consider "consumers considered it to be some of the best meat available"
 * Pumpkin Sky  talk  19:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, PumpkinSky! I believe I have addressed both of your comments. Dana boomer (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments by Cwmhiraeth
 * I find the image captions uninspiring. I understand that the subject of the article should not be included in the caption.
 * Do you have suggestions for the captions? Also, what guideline says that the subject should not be included in the caption? - DB
 * Jimfbleak told me in the Common toad review that it was a guideline. You could just have "Young stallion" for example. The engraving caption could mention the name of the engraver. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:40, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but which guideline? I've never seen the guideline that says this, and (no offense to Jim, he's a great reviewer) anything cited an un-named guideline should be double checked. I've tweaked a couple of the image captions to remove the name of the breed, but think that "young stallion" is ambiguous. I can't find the name of the engraver for the 1861 image. Dana boomer (talk) 13:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * *Cwmhiraeth, I am a minor contributor to this article, so I can't be a reviewer here, nor do I want to substantially intervene in the process, but in this situation, with all due respect, you are missing the importance of style and flow; have you forgotten that Jimofbleak also stated "most of the images don't need the name, but some...might read better with it in"? This is such a case; the caption changes Dana made per your suggestions are now clunky and of poor structure; they were better the first way. I am going to revise them a bit.  I'm not trying to create drama, but this is not working for a featured article, it's the form of a guideline without the substance.  WP:IAR.  Montanabw (talk) 19:08, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And I've tweaked them again to remove the breed names, while still keeping some of your changes. If this is a guideline (and I'd still like to see that guideline), then at this point the majority of the captions don't include the breed name, and should be good. We're already IAR on a couple of images that I didn't change, and calling IAR on 4 out of 5 images is going overboard. However, I'd still like to see that guideline... Dana boomer (talk) 20:16, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think there IS a guideline that says this, I think it's a misinterpretation, but I also don't really care; the changed captions just sounded clunky. I won't argue further about the matter.  Montanabw (talk) 06:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Guidelines or not, I think the caption for the horse's head image is better than the original. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:38, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The guideline is not to link the article name in a caption (or anywhere else in the article of course) for obvious reasons. It is pure nonsense to construct contrived phrasing in a caption to try to meet ill-informed commentary. There is is a caption in the current version that reads " A modern member of the breed ..." - changed from "A modern Boulonnais ...". How can anybody seriously think that is an improvement? I'd oppose this candidature on the basis that the process has resulted in a worsening of a perfectly good article. --RexxS (talk) 15:51, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, I've reverted the one caption to "A modern Boulonnais...", since a couple of people have commented on that (and I agree it was clunky). Dana boomer (talk) 19:04, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "The breed has a full chest, rounded rib cage and a sloping shoulder." Is this use of the word "breed" correct? Are not these in fact breed traits?
 * Tweaked. Better? - DB
 * The sentence "breeders began to again prefer darker colors such as bay and chestnut" has a split infinitive.
 * I believe I have fixed this. - DB
 * "... encouraged the conversion of nine draft horse breeds, including the Boulonnais, from pulling horses to meat horses." I think the sentence is ambiguous. Who or what was pulling the horses?
 * Personally, I think the context of the sentence makes this unambiguous. However, if you have alternate wording to suggest, I'm definitely open to other options... - DB
 * What about "... proposed that nine draft horse breeds, including the Boulonnais, were recategorized from pulling horses to meat horses." Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:40, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed to a minorly tweaked version of your proposed wording. Thanks again! Dana boomer (talk) 13:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "A 2009 study of French equine genetics theorized that the Boulonnais ..." - would not "proposed" be a better word?
 * Changed. Thanks for the look-through and the comments! Dana boomer (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:38, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Support now Pumpkin Sky   talk  18:35, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comments from MathewTownsend
 * I think it needs a copy edit for more elegant wording and easier reading. I think the wordiness could be reduced (though I don't know anything about writing horse articles). Examples with suggestions from the lede only:
 * "It is known for its elegant, though large, appearance and is usually gray, although chestnut and black are also allowed by the French breed registry. e.g. "though large" ... "although chestnut and black are also allowed ..." - is there a more elegant way of saying this?
 * I've tweaked the first bit, but don't have an idea for how the second part could be said differently (or why it should be, it seems fine to me). - DB
 * "There were originally several sub-types of the Boulonnais, but they were crossbred until only one is seen today." - (suggestion) Originally there were several sub-types but were crossbred and only one is seen today.
 * The suggestion is ungrammatical. I have, however, made a run through the article removing "Boulonnais" in places (including here) were I can do so without changing the meaning of the sentence. - DB
 * "The breed almost went extinct following World War II, but experienced a rebound in France in the 1970s as it became a popular breed for producing horse meat." (suggestion)"The breed nearly became extinct following World War II, but rebounded in France in the 1970's as a popular breed for horse meat."
 * Changed. - DB
 * " mostly in France with a few found in other nations." (suggestion): mostly in France and a few found in other nations."
 * Changed. - DB
 * "Studies as early as 1983 found a danger of inbreeding with the Boulonnais population and a 2009 report suggested that the breed should be a priority for conservation within France." (another "found" - suggestion): As early as 1983 studies indicated the danger of inbreeding, and a 2009 report suggested that conservation of the Boulonnais breed should be a priority  within France.
 * I've tweaked to remove the "found", but the rewording suggestion moves the subject of the sentence to too late in the article, as the first clause could theoretically refer to inbreeding as a whole, rather than within this specific breed. - DB
 * "The smallest type of Boulonnais was originally used to pull carts full of fresh fish from Boulogne to Paris, while the larger types were used for heavy draft work, both on farms and in the cities. It has also been used to create and refine several other draft breeds. - three "used" in two sentences. (is there another way to word this without repeating "used"?) MathewTownsend (talk) 22:20, 4 October 2012 (UTC) p.s. and repetition of "types" twice in the first sentence? MathewTownsend (talk) 13:04, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Mathew, thanks for the review! I've made a run through the full article to try to reduce occurrences of several words that I have a bad habit of using too much (types, used, found, also among them), and have replied to your comments above. Dana boomer (talk) 19:04, 6 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: There's a stability issue at the moment, 6 reverts in the past day or so. Really people, stop with the edit warring, you all know better. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:38, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I know. There is a user attempting to impose their citation preferences, despite WP:CITEVAR, with a couple of people reverting him, as well as some generic back and forth. I'm working via e-mail and talk pages to hopefully get this calmed down. (Mathew, this is why I haven't responded to your comments; we're trying to get this little tempest settled first.). Dana boomer (talk) 14:45, 5 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that issue is over. Dana, if everyone else is OK, can you restore what is the last "clean" version without any concerns from the reviewers and we can proceed from there?   Montanabw (talk) 20:43, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Support Comments by Jim Usual thorough(bred) coverage, but a few quibbles  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?
 * Studies as early as 1983 found a danger of inbreeding with the Boulonnais population—shouldn't that be "within the Boulonnais population "?
 * The smallest type of Boulonnais was originally used to pull carts full of fresh fish from Boulogne to Paris, while the larger types—avoid repeat of "type"?
 *  It has also—follows sentence above, so "it" refers to "The smallest type". Is that what you intended?
 * almost destroyed the breed, as their home area —"its home area"?
 * Fréthun alone is found —Fréthun's genes are found… ?
 * …Nord-Pas-de-Calais alone,[8] a few are exported..—'I'm not sure that the end of this sentence is grammatical
 * In ref 18 you have written in the word "volume", in other refs you have just bolded the volume number. Unless I've missed something, you should be consistent.
 * Thanks for the comments, Jim! I believe I have addressed everything; please let me know if there was anything I missed. Dana boomer (talk) 18:35, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Dana. I fixed a newly created typo (pullied) and ran the duplicate links detector, which I should have done first time through. Found three. "hands" is template-generated, more trouble than it's worth to fix, "stud farm" is piped on one occurrence, so gave benefit of doubt, Fixed "Arabian horse" myself.
 * I always forget to double check the hands templates...it's a pretty easy fix (just "lk=off"), if I can remember. Thanks again! Dana boomer (talk) 11:51, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments


 * "There were originally several sub-types" should be "Originally there were several sub-types"
 * Move first image inside breed characteristics to right side as per MOS:IMAGELOCATION
 * Above two done. - DB


 * External links?
 * All potential external links have been integrated into the references. - DB


 * Any portals to add using the portal bar template or portal box
 * None that I can think of. - DB

TBrandley 20:47, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments, TBrandley. I have replied in-line. Dana boomer (talk) 00:56, 7 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Support on all criteria, now that all of my above concerns have been addressed correctly. TBrandley 03:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.