Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Buena Vista Social Club/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 04:22, 5 May 2007.

Buena Vista Social Club
Self nom. I've given people a hard time of late when reviewing articles here. Now it's my turn to suffer. Note that this article describes a club, an ensemble of musicians, a song, an album and a film. So some of the uses of "Buena Vista Social Club" have italics and some don't, which is rather confusing I must admit.-- Z leitzen (talk)  22:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The see also section is empty except for the portalpar; you 'll want to either put some links there or delete the section and move the portal link to the above or below section. Picaroon 00:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Someone else had emptied the section recently, and I hadn't spotted it. I've removed the section, as there is nothing to go in.-- Z leitzen (talk)  00:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Since you bring it up, italicizing song titles (rather than using quotation marks) is a rather unusual convention. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right. I've got so confused about the various conventions, made even more complex by Spanish words being italicised, that I've italicised the songs in error.-- Z leitzen (talk)  04:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Object or *Oppose the first part of the Article has 0 Refs, for all the statements there should be more refs to become a Featured article, SorryMax 05:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Not giving citations in the lead is a common practice (since that information is supported in the body of the text). The rest of the article seems well-referenced. What particular statements do you believe require attention? Christopher Parham (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The lead in an article is meant to be a summary of the cited material in the body, and is not expected to have citations unless it introduces something controversial or contains a use of terminology that may be questioned.-- Z leitzen (talk)  12:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The above is not a valid oppose. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment Zleitzen, I've held off here because I really don't understand the Fair Use situation (either on images or audio&mdash;see this.) Can you get more of the music and Fair Use people on board here, to help assure there's no issue?  Also, can you add some categories to the article, so the Music, Film and Cuba folks will pick it up?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't really know much a lot about fair use myself, but I based the music clips on previous FAs, the page Music samples and This from Wikipedia:Fair use. I think the clips meet the criteria for fair use by those guidelines, but I'll pass it on to the fair use crowd. As for cats, it has its own subcategory Category: Buena Vista Social Club which has all the relevant articles and sub category links. -- Z leitzen  (talk)  03:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've deal with fair use issues pretty regularly, so here's my input on the matter. The samples in the captions don't appear to be fair use since there isn't sufficient discussion of the works to justify using samples there.  The samples in the sample boxes look good though.  There's a decent amount of discussion of the works, so justifying fair use there is simple.  The sample for "Buena Vista Social Club" is fine by Music samples, but the one for "Chan Chan" should be shortened to around 25-26 seconds (keep in mind that 5 seconds is non-negligible when the sample is only 30 seconds long).  ShadowHalo 16:46, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Judging by the comments linked to by Sandy above, I agree that the captioned samples do not meet fair use criteria. I've shortened the Chan Chan sample as recommended and removed two of the three captioned samples. However, one of the captioned samples is accompanied by text which refers to Compay Segundo - whose name comes directly from his singing style (he is a "second voice" harmony singer). The sample was chosen to illustrate this singing style;
 * "'Born Máximo Francisco Repilado Muñoz but given the nickname Segundo (second), he was traditionally a 'second voice' singer providing a baritone counterpoint harmony. On the Buena Vista Social Club recording, Segundo provides both voices on the song 'Y Tú Qué Has Hecho', written in the 1920s by his friend Eusebio Delfín.'"
 * Perhaps this text means that the sample is different to the other captioned samples? Thoughts on this would be welcomed.-- Z leitzen (talk)  17:53, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I may have read through that part a little too quickly. You're right that using a sample to illustrate that would be fair use.  I would say that the discussion there shouldn't impact this article at all.  The issue with Genesis was that there was minimal, if any, discussion of the works and that there were 17 samples, but I have to say this article does a good job with the analysis and it only uses three.  ShadowHalo 23:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Object - sad to do so, because it's pretty much FA standard, but just let down by some sloppy copy from place to place. Has the article had a third-party copyedit? Taking just the "Impact and analysis" section, I quickly found a number of incidents to illustrate this:
 * It's been independently copyedited, and heavily worked to the last word, perhaps more so than any article I've been involved with both before submission and during candidacy.-- Z leitzen (talk)  13:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. --Dweller 12:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "the Buena Vista Social Club generated a revival of interest in traditional Cuban music" when was it a topic of interest previously?
 * The early part of the article discusses the "golden age" of Cuban music in the 1930s, 1940s and 50s in some detail, and the subsequent decline. In fact, the whole subject matter is based around the fact that this music and these musicians were popular between the 1930s-50s and the article mentions it from the first sentence and repeatedly prior to the sentence in question!?! The "revival" is also qualified by the surrounding text where Juan de Marcos describes "Cuban music regaining the status it once had in Latin American and world music", and the quotes about the tourist industry. Besides, to describe traditional music as having a "revival" doesn't seem to require qualifiers of its previous popularity. I have emphasised the popularity of traditional Cuban music abroad in first half of the twentieth century in the appropriate section earlier in the article. -- Z leitzen  (talk)  13:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "a symbol of the power of Cuban music, which contributed to Cuban music" redundancy
 * Pretty much a direct quote from Juan de Marcos, published in a magazine. I have changed it to show that it is a direct quote.-- Z leitzen (talk)  13:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "Cuba's burgeoning tourist industry of the late 1990s benefited from the rebirth of interest." not very clear - maybe "this rebirth..."?
 * Changed on your recommendation.-- Z leitzen (talk)  13:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * parag beginning "Mari Marques, a Cuban American". Too much credence given to a non-notable spokesman's (quote the publication instead?) opinion. "the reality is that son trios have existed everywhere in cities such as Santiago de Cuba in the east of the island" - "everywhere" is rather overstating the case, given the immediate limiters that follow.
 * Is a Cuban-American who conducts cultural tours of Cuba a non-notable? I would suggest that she was a rarity (given the travel ban on U.S. citizens) and hence her opinion was notable enough to be detailed in the magazine, and this article. Views about Cuba are often best illustrated by these kinds of anecdotal commentators, comparatively free from the maelstrom of political propaganda that tarnishes nearly every aspect of this subject from all sides. There are always numerous firmly held contradictory views on every aspect of Cuba, and nobody can agree on anything, hence the need to show a range of views that sometimes seem to be in contradiction. As before, the "everywhere" was a direct quote from a subject cited in the article and hence not my copy or POV, I've added quote marks to emphasise this.-- Z leitzen (talk)  13:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.