Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Butterfly (Mariah Carey album)/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Laser brain 17:14, 3 February 2011.

Butterfly (Mariah Carey album)

 * Nominator(s): CallMe Nathan   &bull;  Talk2Me   02:12, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it to meet FA criteria. This article was copy-edited by my friend Sarastro1, who is unfamiliar with the subject and text. Thanks everyone for participating. CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   02:12, 26 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Comments by Tb hotch * ۩  ۞ 07:48, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Images
 * File:Mcbutterfly.jpg -> May be found at the following website: http://www.amazon.com/Butterfly-Mariah-Carey/dp/B000002BQK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1284400457&sr=8-1 --> Make it encyclopedic
 * File:Mariah-carey-the-roof.jpg -> Fails WP:NFCC (Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created)) Exist many images of Carey's face; WP:NFCC; WP:NFCC (The name of each article ... in which fair use is claimed for the item) it only has the rationale of The Roof (Back in Time).
 * Read the rest of the article. It has sufficient rational and critique to be there.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   08:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Infobox
 * ALT needed for consistency
 * Released; September 11, 1997 (UK)/ September 16, 1997 (U.S.) -> Do we need this? put the first release, the information have to be somewhere
 * (New York City)[1] -> Suggesting (New York City, New York), and remove the source.


 * Lead
 * Butterfly, the sixth studio album by American singer-songwriter Mariah Carey, was released on September 16, 1997, by Columbia Records. -> Sounds awkward, why not the traditional Butterfly is the sixth studio album by American singer-songwriter Mariah Carey. It was released on September 16, 1997, by Columbia Records.
 * Butterfly deviated from the formula of Carey's older work -> Which work
 * the album received positive reviews from music critics -> The article notes: The album received generally positive reviews
 * ."[2] -> No sources in the lead
 * A quote needs direct attribution and sourcing, even in the lead.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   08:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The album pushed her music into a hip-hop and R&B sound, -> already commented
 * Though released during Carey's conflict with Sony Music, the album became a commercial success How the conflict with her label be related to the album's success?
 * Five singles -> link single
 * "Honey", the album's lead single ... The album's fourth single, "My All", -> and the second and the third?
 * The lead is to give a main picture of the article's main points, not little nit picks. For that read the rest of the article.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   08:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Those are quick-comments only from the lead. I'll take my review later this week. Tb hotch * ۩ ۞ 07:48, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose Seems like Nathan won't learn how is the FAC process. Also that comment makes me wonder if "this album isn't hip hop" why it says "R&B, hip-hop, pop"?. If its author insist and persist in doing uncooperative actions, I won't waste my time reviewing his articles. Tb hotch * ۩  ۞ 08:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

 -- Andy Walsh  (talk)  19:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Let's see if this article is a featured article per WP:FA?:
 * 1a - Maybe
 * recognised -> American subject
 * in the air. her left
 * owing to its heavy hip-hip influences.


 * 1b - Maybe
 * 1c - Maybe
 * Critics saw Carey's new production team as a form of revenge on Mottola and Sony Music.[2] -> Sony is never mentioned in those pages
 * Originally, Carey had not planned to tour, after receiving mixed reviews in the US for her Music Box Tour. ->


 * 1d - No, the worst point
 * Very biased. It contains irrelevant and unneutral information of its singles. It talks alot of "Honey" and "My All", sometimes of "Butterfly" and very few of the other two singles and others songs.
 * The tour was a critical and commercial success. Both fans and critics praised the quality of the show and Carey's vocals.[31] -> Even it is sourced, is it neutral?


 * 1e - Yes
 * 2a - No
 * "Honey", the album's lead single, topped the charts in the US and Canada, and reached the top-five in New Zealand, Spain and the United Kingdom -> Irrelevant for the lead of the album, relevant for the lead of the song


 * 2b - Yes
 * 2b - Yes
 * 3 - No
 * 4 - No (also see Indopug comment)
 * Carey also faced media criticism over her choice of producers and several newspapers linked Carey romantically to several rappers, suggesting these relationships influenced her decisions. -> Off-topic/ Source never state this in pages 99 or 100 /  Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. (why an unauthorized biography is reliable for those information?)
 * The remix for "Honey" featured rapping lead vocals from Da Brat and Mase, and some verses were rapped by Combs himself. The track was very different from Carey's previous recordings, and was described by author Chris Nickson as "street Hip-Hop music, with a booming bass."[5] -> Irrelevant for this article
 * The promotion section talks about how the singles were promoted, not the album


 * As some people believe my oppose is "personal" here are very few of many issues of the article. As you can read, this article does not meets the featured article criteria. Tb hotch * ۩  ۞ 00:07, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what you're saying. That sentence is exactly sourced in the book, I can assure it. Next, that "personal" info can sure be sourced by a biography page as it gets info from various interviews, for example, Nickson and Shapiro interviewed Walter Afanasieff, the man who co-wrote most of Carey's biggest hits. He was around during those turbulent times. Next, it is relevant. We need to know the background information for the album, whatever has to do with it. Talking about Carey's "different" sound, staff and environement that was "directly" crucial to the album's development is precisely needed and relevant. Also, how is the "Honey Remix" info irrelevant? It was part of the album, I don't see how thats irrelevant. Lastly, the promotion needs to discuss the album's promotion as a whole, not songs. This is an album article not a song one. Also, Indopug's comments were so far resolved, letting you know. And That other info is not irrelevant, the song's and their success are a direct extension of the album. Thats all.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   06:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Oppose mainly because there is far too much information here that is better suited for sub-articles, i.e., the song articles. In particular, the two sections about the music videos have little to do directly with the album. Similarly, the singles section is too detailed; IMO a paragraph in "Chart performance" would suffice. Allmusic's and Slant's reviews are retrospectives, yet you quote them before contemporary reviews by the Times, the Voice and Entertainment Weekly (and don't make a distinction between the two anywhere), what gives?—indopug (talk) 18:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Per WP:V, those succession boxes need to be cited, especially for the preceding and succeeding albums. Else, they have to be removed.—indopug (talk) 18:36, 26 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, the song info is only one section and it is what composes the album, so its necessary. I think it needs to be there. As for the music video, I didn't just add a synopsis for all five of them, I noted the important or notable ones and their controversies. Do you really think thst because something has a bit too much info for your liking that it deserves an oppose? Please reconsider.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   19:42, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * If you summarised the influence the music videos released from Butterfly had on the Carey's career, that's fine. The first two sentences of "Reaction to 'Honey' video", for example, are relevant, but the rest has nothing to do with this album as a whole. Ditto for the "Music videos" section. Again, note that music videos are not a part of the album; if you bought the CD in 1997, you wouldn't be getting the videos. Music videos are released to promote individual songs, and need to be discussed only in the context of those songs. Besides all that info is completely redundant to The_Roof_(song) and Honey_(Mariah_Carey_song).
 * I refuse to "reconsider" my oppose, because grounded in WP:FA?, especially #4: "[the article] stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail".—indopug (talk) 04:51, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright. I removed both.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   07:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I will revisit soon with a detailed review.—indopug (talk) 10:30, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Disambig/External Link check - no dabs or dead external links. A few external redirects which may lead to link rot, see them with the tool in the upper right of this page. -- Pres N  01:44, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose—the prose isn't good enough. Everywhere I look there are issues: logic, typography, grammar ... Here are a few at random:
 * 1) "Five singles were released from Butterfly; some featured as airplay-only singles, while others were released only in certain territories"—I don't understand how these two points are related to each other logically.
 * 2) "Carey's thirteenth number one single on the"—13th number-one, especially in a space-scarce caption. Don't we normally use numerals for > one-digit numbers? I see 14th, 21 weeks, etc.
 * 3) "was certified five-times platinum"—unsure of the need for the hyphen.
 * This is correct, as this they are coherent; but it could be better written as "5&times; P/platinum"-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 15:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) "Butterfly received generally positive reviews from music critics ."
 * 2) Fair use claims for the audio excerpts: it would help if the caption or the related main text commented explicitly on the sound. For example, "A sample from the song, featuring the heavy hip-hop influence that began incorporating itself into Carey's music." What exactly is the hip-hop influence in aural terms? What does a dummy like me look for when I listen? "A sample from "Butterfly". The song was very personal, and was described by Carey as "her best work, and most heartfelt ballad."" That second one shows no educational value; I'm not sure it complies with NFCC#8 and #3b, if I remember without checking them. Tony   (talk)  06:50, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.