Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Céline Dion/archive1

Céline Dion
Self-Nomination. This article has come a very long way. I mean, a VERY long way. I discovered it in the summer, and was appalled at its state, so I decided to improve it (even though school got in the way). Ive worked laboriously, seeking the help of User:Mel Etitis and User:Extraordinary Machine, both of whom have provided valuable feedback. It was also submitted for peer review, (though only two users replied--User:Jkelly and the aforementioned User:EM). Here is the article before the others and I got to it: Celine Dion in August, and here is the finished product: Céline Dion. I think it displays one of Wiki's best work as it's comprehensively written and meets all the FA criteria. If you disagree, please provide constructive criticism and I will be sure to address them and resubmitt. Thanks Θrǎn   e    (t)   (c)   (e-mail)  19:56, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Support. C'est magnifique! However, there are some consistency issues: francophone and anglophone are written in the article with both capitalised and uncapitalised initial letters.--cj | talk 00:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Excellent work. Balcer 01:13, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Enchanting article. Although I would advise you to place the "External links" section at the very bottom. Amazing work! --Hollow Wilerding 01:15, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much. I would put external links at the bottom, but according to Manual of Style (headings), "notes' should be at the bottom. Oran   e    (t)   (c)   (e-mail)  Make Céline Dion a FA! 01:29, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, really? I did not know this. Then that's fine. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Good job! --Hollow Wilerding 02:14, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Learn something new every day. I didn't know that either.  Jkelly 03:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I too was surprised to learn this. I've posted a comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (headings) asking about it. --Spangineeres  (háblame)  03:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Support. The article is better than most of her songs, really. :) Halibutt 02:07, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Objections: 1. Most of the images lack detailed fair use rationales. 2. I respect Stephen Thomas Erlewine, but there is far too much dependence on his and other All Music editors' reviews. 3. Focuses far too much on dry awards and sales information with only vague notions of the interesting aspects: What does her music sound like? How has it progressed between albums? What themes do her lyrics cover? What is the recording process for her albums like? What musicians does she work with on the recordings? Article also appears to not mention what label(s) she's been signed to and how they've worked out. 4. Lead section is choppy and needs to be tightened -- listing every specific award she's won and the year she won it isn't particuarly effective in hooking the reader to read the rest of the article. 5. Many albums aren't linked to, I assume because it would create glaring red links throughout the article. If that's the case then why not create stubs for them? 6. For discography section, suggest not listing compilations and the like, focusing only on her main albums, and save the rest for the discography page. —jiy (talk) 02:39, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feed back. I will address those concerns posthaste. I also encourage anyone to help. 1) For the images, would you specify which ones in particular? 2)I know that the article focuses on AMG reviews, but that site is one of the most authoritative for reviews. And even if you search the net and find reviews, at the end of each would read ...All Music Guide. Ive tried incorporating Rolling Stones (they have only reviewed one of her albums), and Amazon.com Editorial reviews (which sometimes borrow from AMG.) 3)Now that you mention it, the article could talk more about her themes etc. However, most of her collaborations are listed in the article (or the ones worth noting), but thanks for pointing that out. 4) The article does mention her label (Columbia)-- as early as the lead section. 5)The lead section isnt the greatest, but its not choppy. I think its a matter of personal style, (that especially why there's no such thing as a perfect article) Again, thanks. Hopefully, my changes will persuade you to change your vote.  Oran   e    (t)   (c)   (e-mail)  Make Céline Dion a FA! 03:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * No vote, but for a performer who so many people find bland and artificial, especially in her English-language material, you would think from this article that she was a critics' darling, which on the whole she is not. -- 08:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * support but not strongly yet.. good article to read / excellent referencing, easily better than many existing FAs but probably the previous vote is right that more negative responses to her work should be included. Mozzerati 21:59, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Very encyclopedic. Has someone fact checked all the information? Wikipedia needs articles of this quality on all major people so we're not caught flat-footed when they're above the fold news.--FloNight 22:04, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the votes. Just to let you guys know, Im wroking on addressing the concerns of User:Jiy. Any help would be appreciated. I will also include more negative comments to balance it out. Oran   e    (t)   (c)   (e-mail)  Make Céline Dion a FA! 22:15, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Support --User:UrineForGas 15:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support--compelling article. Most of the issues that User:Jiy had problems with seems to have been addressed. I think that it's a great article. Khalif 20:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Object, I think jiy's points are well-taken and most of the issues have not been adequately addressed to this point. Relying on Allmusic blurbs for critical perspective is like quoting from Amazon staff reviews; this is not the stuff of a serious encyclopedia. This is part of why the article fails to synthesize its material so as to allow the reader to evaluate her career, instead filling out primarily with awards, chart positions (CHR Audience Chart? BDS era? What are we talking about here?), and gossipy personal factoids. The fact that the authors seem ignorant of the difference between Rolling Stone and (The) Rolling Stones is symptomatic of the problem. For somebody with an extended career that has received a tremendous amount of media coverage, there's a large pool available of significant, generally professional, critical material with both positive and negative assessments (hint: not all of it is available online). This article barely dips a finger into it. --Michael Snow 21:20, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Object After reading the article I can't but agree with the anon's and Michael's objections above. -- Rune Welsh | &tau;&alpha;&lambda;&kappa; | Esperanza  02:30, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Object. There's far too much overreliance on AllMusicGuide and Amazon staff reviews to give any really deep sense of critical reception, especially for a singer with a strong reputation for producing bland schlock. 90% of it reads like it was written by her publicist, and the other 10% like it was written by the staff of People magazine. Andrew Levine 18:30, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Object, as per Michael. Give us more meat in the references and notes sections. --Spangineeres (háblame)  20:59, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Ok, I understand all of the comments, but the people magazine thing was a stretch. Ive really worked hard on the article, and none of the constructive comments seem to point out anything good about the article i.e. what should stay/what works etc, then go on to what's bad, poor ect. Now, Im not angry or anything (in fact, Im far from that), but I beleieve that you could be a little more sensitive. Now, on to more important matters: I know that the all music guide references are a stretch, and Ill remove them, and find other ones. (Again, I ask for help). Maybe the article was prematurely nominated, I dont know. Anyway, there were some who thought that it was excellent, or atleast, very good.


 * Also, why does everyone think that Dion makes mediocre music (User:Andrew Levine and others)? The lady has won five Grammys. Can mediocre music win Best Pop album, Best pop vocals,(twice), and the most coveted Album of the year and Record of the year awards?. I really don't think that theres much pov in the article. Before the 2000s, Dion did make good music (as can be shown by her awards→Grammys etc), she does have a good voice (shown in the fact that she was voted as the 9th greatest voice in popular music, and the 4th most outstanding pop vocalist on earth). And please dont be against the inclusion of album sales in the article, its shows the fan's reaction (popularity), just as how the reviews show the critical reaction. I agree that since the millennium, she had lost her spark (for lack of a better word), and she has gotten unfavourable reviews. Ive included all this in the article: Rolling Stone reviewer calling her music "schlock pop". Ive used quotes that proves that her album/singles are "uninspiring", "lifeless", disastrous, "forgettable" "predictable", "inconsistent" and a host of other words. The fact remains, however, that she is not as loathed by the critics as you want the article to potrey.
 * Ill see what I can do. And i would encourage people to give other ideas of how it can be improved (instead of joining the band wagon by saying as per Michael ...)   Oran   e    (t)   (c)   (e-mail)  Make Céline Dion a FA! 22:26, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * It's unfortunate you regard the criticisms of the article as insensitive to your efforts. But we have to be firm and rationale here. Let's face it, the article needs more research. There's nothing wrong with that -- featured articles should not be rushed.


 * Maybe a different approach is needed for addressing the article's critical eye. Critical perspective is not a simple matter of seeking a representative for each extreme and quoting them. Perhaps a broader perspective could be achieved by reading multiple reviews and extracting the common criticisms and accolades between them, then formulating it into prose. It is not a matter of just "good" and "bad", either, but also how her work fits into the overall framework of music. Industry awards and sales figures are not indicative of artistic worth, and the reader cannot infer worth from these aspects alone.


 * Before things get too far out of perspective, though, we must keep in mind the critical side is not the only aspect to focus on. There are no interviews (in other words primary sources) in the reference section. Surely a more detailed and accurate picture of this woman and her career, in terms of biography and history, can be extrapolated from the various interviews that have accumulated over the years. By using VH1 and fansite biographies for this purpose -- secondary sources -- we are basically summarizing summaries. Perspective, detail, and accuracy is lost in this way.—jiy (talk) 00:02, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I voted as I did because Michael said what I thought. FAC is a process that relies on consensus, and if I did not voice my agreement with Michael, it would be as if only Michael felt that way, which would increase the likelihood of the article being promoted without our concerns being addressed. --Spangineeres  (háblame)  03:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thats totally understandable. Sorry for the outburst . like I said, Im not angry :). Now, come to think of it, the article could use some improvement, I been rereading it (especially the last part) and Im not too happy with it. Im gonna make sure that it does reach FA status. Oran   e    (t)   (c)   (e-mail)  04:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Support, because the article is very well thought out! 64.231.163.172 23:04, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support Good article, lots of information. Terenceong1992 17:36, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. A very good article, but could use a good deal of expansion before it satisfies the "comprehensive" requirement. Could also use a good copyedit, lots of strange word choices like "Though her albums were relatively successful, it seemed as if Dion had already reached her plateau since the late 1990s, and her albums failed to really ignite critics and fans." Is this saying that Dion is living on a plateau because of the existence of the late 1990s, presumably to hide from prosecution for setting her critics and fans on fire? Less casual and vaguely POVed terms in general will help give the article that extra inch it needs for FA. -Silence 21:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Object Reads quite well, long but there's a lot to cover. My two specific objections echo some of the objections above:
 * Almost no coverage of Dion's MUSIC. After a brief mention of her genre influences, the rest is mainly the critical and sales performance of her recordings, and other details of her personal and business life. There is nothing about her actual singing: her voice and her approach to making music. As it is now, I suppose this format represents one type of "accepted" music biography, but I don't think that's enough of a reason to promote it as a Wikipedia standard, not if it could clearly be improved as far as comprehensiveness. For example, on Wikipedia, I looked up the first dozen or so names of popular musicians and singers that came to mind, and found among them two articles which do attempt to treat the music; neither are very well done, but I think they illustrate the missing dimension that should be a part of all MUSIC articles...coverage directly related to the music itself: Billie Holliday, The Edge.
 * Over-reliance on AMG and use of Amazon.com. - If critics are to be quoted, there should be a reasonably representative variety of sources, not almost exclusively one writer from one source. Using Amazon.com as a source of critical reviews doesn't seem right, as these reviews appear on the pages devoted to selling the product that they are covering...
 * Comment: I heavily disagree with this specific part of your objection. There is no rule on Wikipedia that states "articles must have reviews from various music/film/food etc. critics". As long as there is a review featured from a specific source, the story is settled, and it adds to the article. Having "over-reliance" on certain reviewers is a POV-reason to object. However, I partially agree with your other objections, though this article already meets FA status in my eyes. &mdash;Hollow Wilerding 23:14, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

--Tsavage 21:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I think Ive addressed many of the concerns that arose from the article. Ive removed the superfluous A.M.G reviews, and I found some other reviews, Ive spoken about her music, and the transition of her albums, the instruments used etc (and removed most of the dry awards and sales). Ive linked the albums, provided firuse rationales for each image, oh, and the Intro is changed a bit. Ive used the Kylie Minogue article (a featured article) as a model for this one. Does anything need further attention? Oran  e    (t)   (c)   (e-mail)  03:42, 1 December 2005 (UTC)