Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/C. O. Brocato/archive1

C. O. Brocato

 * Nominator(s): BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

With my first featured article nomination out of 850 articles created, may I present to you C. O. Brocato. I first found out about Brocato last June when I noticed he was one of the candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and saw he did not have an article. This was one of my favorites to write and I believe it is one of my best works. A little bit about Brocato:

From Louisiana, Brocato attended St. John's High School and was the football team captain while playing fullback and placekicker. After graduating from St. John's, he attended Baylor University and became known as one of the best placekickers under pressure in the U.S. (while receiving the nickname "The Foot" ) for his making of several game-winning kicks which helped lead Baylor to their first major bowl game. He was chosen in the National Football League Draft after his college career but was considered too small and opted to enter coaching instead of trying to make a team.

After assisting the Haynesville High School team for a time he was named head coach at St. John's High School, where he had graduated from. He led them to several championships and some of the best teams in school history; in his third year, he led them to their first winning season since he had captained them as a player — which was featured as a WP:DYK hook. Following his time at St. John's (renamed to Jesuit during his stint there), Brocato coached college football as an assistant with the Northern Arizona Lumberjacks and Texas–Arlington Mavericks before resigning in 1973 to enter the scouting ranks, which he was best known for.

Brocato was a scout from 1974 until his death at 85 in 2015 – all but four of those years with the Houston Oilers / Tennessee Oilers / Titans. He became regarded as one of the greatest scouts in football history for his extensive research on every player and for his mentoring of many others in the field. He drove across the country and added around 20,000 mi per year to his car to do his research on NFL prospects – even going into his 70s. He also invented several NFL Scouting Combine events, including the three-cone drill – which is considered a key test for players nowadays. He was responsible for the Oilers / Titans' drafting of four Pro Football Hall of Fame players – including Earl Campbell, one of the best players of all time – and many of those whom Brocato worked with have advocated for his induction into the Hall of Fame as well. He has been a candidate for the hall on several occasions and was a semifinalist the past two years; the NFL also recently named an award in his honor, given to those who have "dedicated a lifetime of service to the scouting community".

I have had several users with FA experience review the article, including (who also reviewed it for DYK and WP:GA),  and. Also note that I intend on using this for the WikiCup, so I would appreciate if this could be finished by the end of October. Thanks, BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

First-time nomination

 * Hi, and welcome to FAC. Just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:42, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, is that done here or do I have to do something somewhere else to get that done? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:45, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It is done here and you don't need to do anything other than respond to any points raised as and when it happens. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:48, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

PCN02WPS

 * After my prose review at Talk:C. O. Brocato, I am happy to support based on comments and responses left there. PCN02WPS  ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 16:44, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Gonzo_fan2007

 * Support based on prose and my addressed comments above. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 15:55, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Image review

 * Suggest adding alt text


 * Is any credit for the lead image provided in the newspaper source? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Newspapers.com is down currently, so I'll need a little while to get to the second point. As for the alt text, I've never quite understood how it works but I think I added it here? Did I do that right? BeanieFan11 (talk) 12:02, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The technique is correct, but the content isn't particularly helpful given that it largely repeats the caption. See Manual_of_Style/Accessibility/Alternative_text_for_images for some guidance. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:26, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , I added a more descriptive alt text. The goal is to provide a clear description of what an image looks like so that a visually impaired person using a screen reader can grasp what the photo looks like. If alt text isn't provided, then the screen reader will either reader the file name of the image or the caption, which often don't provide enough context to understand what the photo looks like. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 16:35, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. Thanks. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:38, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Looking at the newspaper sources again (they seem to work when they don't have the wiki-library url), there's two articles that use that image, both from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram; one of them says in the credit, "Shreveport Journal", and the other says "Special to the Star-Telegram/Shreveport Journal". BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:11, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, is there any indication it was published in the Journal before the given source? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow, that was quick. I think it would have had to as the Star-Telegram pieces were both from 2015, whereas the Shreveport Journal ceased publication in 1991 (per our article) - I don't remember seeing that image anywhere else when I searched to create the article, though... BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:15, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * So they should be credited on the image description page, but it would be good to find out if they name a photographer. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:17, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Does this work? The Star-Telegram articles don't mention the photographer. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:23, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Better. Is the Journal archived in either newspapers.com or newspaperarchive.com? Wondering if they mention it. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:25, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Newspapers.com has it, though it could take some time to search it as the website is currently unavailable through the Wikipedia Library. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:28, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I looked through the Journal archives via Newspapers.com for "tom kelly" and "brocato" and didn't find the picture - is it alright if no photographer is able to be identified? BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it would be helpful to summarize what you've found at the image description page. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I added some information to the image description page - does that work? BeanieFan11 (talk) 12:55, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:34, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie
I copyedited a little as I read through; please feel free to revert anything you disagree with. -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:11, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Suggest saying in the lead that Haynesville High School is in Louisiana.
 * Done.
 * "three-of-four": I was surprised to see the hyphens; is this standard in AmEng? I see the hyphens are used repeatedly later in the article; they look quite odd to my eyes.
 * I often see them in reference to field goals / extra points made. Pinging for his views. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:58, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Per this I don't think that's standard. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems it varies significantly in referring to football - looking at Google for "10-of-12 field goals" (random number) it seems there's a slight majority for the dashes but it looks evenly divided - and then clicking on the first two kickers that come to mind here, I get Harrison Butker (dashes) and Jake Elliott (no dashes). Let's see what Gonzo and have to say. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't have a strong preference either way. I can't find any clear guidance online either. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 15:46, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "successfully attempted" is used twice in two sentences.
 * Changed.
 * "He converted both extra points against SMU, which was the margin of victory in the 14–13 win." "Both" implies two points, but the margin was three.
 * I think I'm confused - could you elaborate what it should be changed to?
 * Sorry, I should have said the margin was one, not three. What I meant was that if "both extra points" was the margin, the margin should be two points.  I suspect what is meant is that the two points he scored was enough to change the score from a losing result to a win. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Would then, say, something like this work: "He converted both extra points against SMU, which allowed the Bears to win 14–13"? BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:47, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that seems fine to me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:50, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "In addition to college football, Brocato played baseball and was a boxer. He was the backup catcher to Larry Isbell on the baseball team and competed at several Golden Gloves tournaments as a boxer."  Suggest "In addition to playing college football, Brocato was the backup catcher to Larry Isbell on the baseball team and competed at several Golden Gloves tournaments as a boxer."
 * Changed.
 * "He left the team in August after being told by coach Joe Stydahar that he was not heavy enough—Brocato weighed 185 pounds (84 kg)—to play professionally, with the intention to get a master's degree and then enter coaching." If we know Stydahar told him this in August (rather than only knowing he left in August) how about "In August the coach, Joe Stydahar, told him that at 185 pounds (84 kg) he was not heavy enough to play professionally, and Brocato left the team, intending to get a master's degree and then enter coaching."  If we only know he left in August I'd suggest something similar, but move the "in August" to "Brocato left the team in August".
 * Changed.
 * "When Cosmo smiled it was ear to ear": I thought this might be a typo but I see from the clipping that it's not, or at least if so it's a typo in the original. It's used twice in the original, but I think it's a typo there; some Googling has convinced me it was never used publicly as a general name for him.  I would suggest adding sic after it in the quote.
 * Changed.
 * Per MOS:DASH you can have spaced en dashes or unspaced em dashes, but not both in the same article.
 * Could you list the sentences that would need to be changed if I went with one or the other?
 * The sentence starting "He had eight siblings" has an unspaced em dash; the sentences starting "Brocato would add", "He recalled in 2015", and "Fisher described Brocato" all have spaced en dashes. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Changed the eight siblings one. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I've responded to each of your points. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:58, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * , the hyphens are the only remaining issue. Given that the football articles seem to be divided in whether they should be used, would you be willing to remove them?  That apparently wouldn't seem wrong to football aficionados, and would seem much better to everyone else. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 12:01, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I guess that's alright - did I get them all? BeanieFan11 (talk) 12:25, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you did. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Comments from WikiOriginal-9
Support I don't see anymore issues. I didn't do a full source review but I expect that's been done by this point. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 10:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you think "Houston Oilers / Tennessee Oilers / Tennessee Titans" would be better, or no?
 * Eh, I kinda feel like its long enough already with "Houston / Tennessee Oilers / Titans" - I think with the note that's been added it should be alright.
 * Who is Tom Kelly in the image caption? Perhaps it should just say "with a player"?
 * Changed to "with a player"
 * "He missed all but one of his five attempts" Is that extra points or field goals or both combined?
 * Extra points, it appears - clarified.
 * Should we cite his height and weight in the infobox? It's from Pro Football Archives. We usually don't put citations in the infobox for players but this is a FA candidate. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 18:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I added a ref for the height, but his weight is discussed later on in the article so I don't think another citation will be necessary in the infobox. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:10, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Issues addressed. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Source review
Source formatting is mostly consistent and all necessary information is there. I notice there is a preeetty strong reliance on newspaper sources here - are there no biographies? Since a spot-check has been asked for and with the caveat that this isn't a topic I am familiar with (I've always thought that American football and baseball are the same thing): Unrelated to spotchecking, but "St. John's was renamed to Jesuit High School in 1960" should probably be mentioned much earlier in the article. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:48, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * 3: Which of the sources does exactly say " fullback and placekicker"?
 * "While attending high school, he was a standout fullback and place kicker"
 * 5: See above.
 * 7: Where does it say he was captain?
 * "At the left is C. O. Brocato, captain"
 * 9: I presume that is talking about baseball.
 * 11: Which of the source speaks of two years?
 * PFA says he didn't play in '49, and then this says he didn't play much in '50
 * 13: I am not sure the source says "missed"...
 * "In the opener, Brocato tried two, missed two"
 * 14: I presume the rest of this sentence is backed by the other source.
 * Which part of 12 supports the "extra point" part? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Brocato had missed the try for point after the Baylor touchdown but Arkansas didn’t score until after his field goal"
 * 19: I presume the rest of this sentence is backed by the other source.
 * I am somewhat struggling to find the "co-captain" part. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "The Shreveport Senior co-captain"
 * 21: I presume the rest of this sentence is backed by the other source.
 * OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * 24: I presume the rest of this sentence is backed by the other source.
 * OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * 31: OK.
 * 33: OK.
 * 38: I presume the rest of this sentence is backed by the other source.
 * Afraid that these sources make my eyes glaze over - which part supports which sentence? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * St. John's was renamed to Jesuit High School in 1960; they compiled a 7–2–1 record that year, which was the first winning record for the school since Brocato's last year playing for them in 1948. For part one, this source from '59 still calls them St. John's, whereas by '60 they had become Jesuit. The rest is covered here: "When Brocato was a senior ... [the] Flyers posted a 5-4-2 record ... [their] first winning season since 1940. It was also their last winning season – until Brocato returned as head football coach in 1958 ... His first two teams were 4-6 (1958) and 4-5 (1959) ... In 1960 his Flyers had a 7-2-1 record."
 * 44: OK.
 * 53: OK.
 * 54: Where's the 15 and 28?
 * "an outfit that furnishes raw dates to 15 of the 28 NFL clubs."
 * 56: I presume the rest of this sentence is backed by the other source.
 * I can't find the numbers in either source? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "He was with the Oilers/Titans for 599 games, working for two owners, seven general managers and 10 head coaches..."
 * 63: I presume the rest of this sentence is backed by the other source.
 * OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * 65: OK.
 * 67: OK.
 * Will start getting to these soon... BeanieFan11 (talk) 13:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there anything else I need to do for this spot check? Also, to answer your question, newspapers and a few websites are pretty much the only sources that have covered Brocato; I've included just about everything I could find worth mentioning. As for the Jesuit part, where would you suggest it be mentioned? I went in chronological order in the article and once I reached 1960 that's when I called out it was renamed that year. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * One place would be the first mention of St. John, I was bepuzzled by it being a red link. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * In the lead or in the prose? (also, there is no article for it at Jesuit or St. John); I realize I do mention it being renamed in the lead for the sentence He went on to serve as an assistant coach at Haynesville High School in Louisiana from 1954 to 1957, as the head coach of St. John's High School (renamed Jesuit High School in 1960) from 1958 to 1968... – should I swap that 1960 mention in the sentence A native of Shreveport, Louisiana, Brocato attended St. John's High School... earlier in the lead? BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:18, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * In the lead, yes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Is this better? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That works. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:15, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Question: is there more work that needs to be done or is this close to being good enough for FA? (Just wondering - as I was hoping to get this passed by the end of the month for the WikiCup ). BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:51, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Currently we are waiting for a pass or fail from Jo-Jo. Once that happens one of the coordinators will have a more detailed look at things. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, forgot to ask a few questions, they are in now. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Responded to each of them. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:20, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, sorry for asking what seems like trivial questions. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:25, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That's alright though, is this considered a source review pass? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Gog the Mild (talk) 17:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This seems to be heading in the right direction but I'd prefer to wait a little longer to see if it attracts another general review or two before I look at it with a view to closing. FrB.TG (talk) 19:10, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Noting that since the prior comment it has gotten another support. Just wondering if sufficient work has been done or should I try to find another reviewer, as I've been really hoping to get this done in time for the WikiCup (end of the month). BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:15, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi BeanieFan, yes this is next on my list to go over for possible closure so sit tight. That is unless one of my fellow coordinators beats me to it. FrB.TG (talk) 07:08, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

FrB.TG (talk) 19:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC)