Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/C. R. M. F. Cruttwell/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain 02:56, 24 January 2011.

C. R. M. F. Cruttwell

 * Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 15:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Poor, unfortunate Crutters! A respected academic historian, fine war record, dean of an Oxford college at 33 – what could go wrong? Well, in 1922 he had the misfortune to meet, and fall out with, the young Evelyn Waugh, a resourceful and unforgiving enemy. For the next 17 years the name "Cruttwell" was introduced repeatedly into Waugh's novels and stories, always as a nasty or ridiculous character – a burglar, a homicidal maniac, a toady, a dishonest cubmaster. Followers of Waugh scanned each new novel to see how Cruttwell would be represented, as did Cruttwell himself. His various academic publications and achievements are almost entirely forgotten, and the man behind them has quite disappeared; he is only remembered as a comic literary footnote. The poor fellow eventually went mad. This sad and cautionary little tale (don't make war on Waughs!) has been well peer-reviewed, and I hope it will be read and enjoyed here. I believe that in this case, use of the non-free image of Cruttwell (the only photo of him that has ever been published, it seems) is justified. Brianboulton (talk) 15:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Support all of my comments were addressed, where appropriate at the PR. I have nothing new to add.  Well deserving of promotion.  Very quirky, but a nice fun article.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:38, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

General
 * Thanks for the support, most grateful. Brianboulton (talk) 13:16, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comments
 * "First World War" and "Great War" are both used; using one would enhance readability.

Lede
 * dean is linked in the second paragraph, but first appears in the first.
 * "university's parliamentary seat in the 1935 UK general election" UK is redundant.
 * "A mental collapse led to his committal to a mental institution, where he died two years later." The repetition is a bit awkward.

Early life and career
 * ""It was as though he had never cleansed himself from the muck of the trenches", according to Evelyn Waugh." Since Waugh's view was biased, I think this would be better worded something like "Evelyn Waugh said "it was as though he had never cleansed himself from the muck of the trenches.""

Hertford College
 * I'm not sure that "the" needs linking in "the Duke of Wellington", although I may be wrong.

Later years
 * "He left his book collection and a bequest of £1,000 to Hertford College, together with an oil portrait painted in 1937 by his cousin, Grace Cruttwell." What was the portrait of? (I presume it was him, but this is not clear.)

Reputation  wacky wace  17:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The name "Ellis" is written three times before his full name is used.
 * Thank you for these comments. I have fixed them all, except for the first. The term "Great War" is only used either as part of Cruttwell's book title, or in references to this book, e.g. "the Great War history". I don't think that there can be any real confusion here, and I'd prefer to leave it as it is. Brianboulton (talk) 11:49, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That's fine with me. I'm now very happy to support, since all my comments have been addressed. An excellent, interesting, really well-written article.  wacky wace  19:54, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment: How certain are we that there are no free images? Remember, any picture published prior to 1923 can be considered public domain as far as the English Wikipedia is concerned. J Milburn (talk) 17:59, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * This came up at the peer review (with Jappalang). Cruttwell published only one book before 1923, and from what Brianboulton has said, that does not have an image of him (many academic books today do not have images of the author). Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:51, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I am as certain as I can be that no pre-1923 photograph of Cruttwell has been published. There is no portrait in his one pre-1923 book; he was scarcely a public figure at that time, so one would not expect to see his picture published. In fact, this shot appears to be the only picture of him ever published; even the DNB doesn't have an alternative. Nor do the many books written about Waugh over the years. Of course, it is impossible to prove a negative, but I think the matter is established beyond any reasonable doubt. Brianboulton (talk) 11:49, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That's fair enough, I expected that to be the case. Perhaps update the rationale with that? In any case, images are legit, copyright/NFCC wise. J Milburn (talk) 23:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have followed your suggestion and strengthened the fair use rationale. Brianboulton (talk) 17:32, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Just in case, anyone wishes to take a look at Cruttwell's 1922 work&mdash;The War Service of the 1/4 Royal Berkshire Regiment (T. F.)&mdash;to verify there is no portrait, it is at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/22028. Jappalang (talk) 02:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Or here, in its original print format. Brianboulton (talk) 10:05, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Support I am glad to support this article, which meets all the FA criteria. I too was involved in the extensive peer review and all of my concerns were addressed there. The only thing I have to add is that Cruttwell appears to have been a coauthor on The Medieval administration of the Channel Islands: 1199-1399 London : H. Milford, Oxford University Press, 1937. The authors are listed as: John H Le Patourel; George Norman Clark; C R M F Cruttwell; Maurice Powicke. My image review follows. Well done, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:51, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the support and other comments. I am most surprised to see Cruttwell's name attached to a book about the Channel Islands in the Middle Ages; far outside his general range of expertise. I imagine that Le Patourel (a scholarly expert on CI history) was the chief author and that Cruttwell's contribution was small. Anyway, thanks for digging this out; I will add it tpo the list of works. Brianboulton (talk) 13:16, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I searched WorldCat in the hopes of finding another book of his published before 1923 (so perhaps with a free image), and found this instead. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 18:45, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Image review There are three images in the article, two of which (the Hertford Quadrangle and Waugh) are unquestionably free. I agree with the fair use rationale for the third, of Crutwell himself. Since Crutwell is dead and has been for several decades, no new free images of him may be obtained. Not only does the fair use image of him identify him, it is also the same image discussed in the article that Waugh used in his satirical article in the Isis, so I think it is doubly useful . Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:51, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Per Fasach Nua's comment below, I have changed the license on the infobox image to PD-UK, which is a free license. All images are now free. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Support on 1c/2c Review: Good, some fixits Check the section structure, it looks rather odd to have References under Notes and references. Bring Bibliography into style with your Sources section?  No dois: no doi check necessary.  Didn't spot check.  Don't pick fights with haughty undergrads. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:11, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Fifelfoo (talk) 13:25, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm a tad concerned at Amory, Mark (ed.). As an edited collection of letters, it isn't clear if the p6 reference is from a Scholarly Introduction, and if the p.108 reference is to a letter, or to a scholarly introduction to a letter.  Similarly with Slater which is an edited collection of short stories.
 * Byyrne, p. 110 is mispelt
 * Given but not used: Davie, Michael (ed.) (1976).  To Further reading?
 * No Ital "Patey, Douglas Lane (1998)."? Was it not published?  Should indicate if it was a [report] [thesis] etc.
 * Slater Slater? Slater, Ann Pasternak Slater (ed) ;  Did the book really have (Introduction) as part of its title?
 * You may want to replace Amazon with a better bibliographic source, say, a National deposit library which will have indexed the first publication date? Fifelfoo (talk) 03:11, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Typos, italics, redundancies fixed. Both the Amory refs are to letters - I have clarified this in the citations. Of the two Slater refs, the first merely confirms the original short story title "Mr Cruttwell's Little Outing"; I have separated this from the bundled ref, to make this clear. The second Slater citation pinpoints the Wolf cub master reference in the short story; I have added clarifying details. I have replaced the Amazon ref with the book's original publication details. Brianboulton (talk) 12:52, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * With the Bibliography, I brought it into line with cite book style: option 1: author masks, remove the |authormask=—— on the first to get author name displayed option 2: no authors listed, dates at end.  If you want either, but want it in plain text rather than templates, let me know and I'll hand roll it. Fifelfoo (talk) 13:25, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Support: Nice, short, comprehensive article on the man who had given the world an objective look on World War I and helped to educate future generations. I had participated in the article's Peer review and was of the mind then that it was of FA quality.  Jappalang (talk) 02:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Comments: Why is The Medieval administration of the Channel Islands: 1199-1399 linked to Worldcat in Bibliography (the only work to do so)? WP:EL states "[links to web pages outside Wikipedia] should not normally be used in the body of an article" and such links should be in a External links section (a bulleted list) at the end of the article.  I am not sure how the Worldcat link helps that book anyway.  The Gutenberg link to his 1922 book would be more suitable if there is an External links section.  Jappalang (talk) 02:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have removed the link from the Channel Islands book, per WP:EL. I'm not sure that a Gutenberg link to a brief regimental history, the least of Cruttwell's history publications, is worth opening an External links section for. Brianboulton (talk) 09:53, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The EL in current ref 6 could be to the Gutenberg version of the regimental history (instead of Amazon, as it is now). "Cruttwell, C.R.M.F. (1922). The War Service of the 1/4 Royal Berkshire Regiment (T. F.). Oxford: Blackwells. http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Service-Royal-Berkshire-Regiment/dp/0554073730." Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 14:22, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Excellent idea, now done - the link goes to the Gutenberg version. Brianboulton (talk) 17:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Images Why is an Image from 90 years ago, published in the UK used under a non-free license rather than Template:PD-UK? Fasach Nua (talk) 21:47, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have switched the license to PD-UK per your comment. I assumed because it was published after 1923, it was still copyrighted in the US (where Wikipedia's servers are located). Thanks for the clarification. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no rationale yet that the image is free in the U.S., which is the foremost concern here. I believe one can certainly say the image will be PD in the U.S. by 2020 (95 years after being published, extended until the end of the year), but it could be free already under certain other conditions we can't glean from the image page (like the original 1924 publication lacking U.S. formalities, see foreign work parts of and ). Perhaps reinstate the non-free use rationale to be sure? Hekerui (talk) 10:38, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * While it seems to me the photo is either free or not, I have added back the Fair Use rationale to the image page per your suggestion, with a note that this is to cover its probable copyright status in the US. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 15:39, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Something is either free in the U.S. or not and something is either free in the UK or not. You made that distinction by leaving the PD-UK template on the image page. Good. Hekerui (talk) 16:24, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Disambig/External Link check - no dabs or dead external links. -- Pres N  22:42, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Support: I've read this article several times and can't find anything wrong with it. Very well written and comprehensive. Spot checks from online sources are all good. Just a couple of queries:
 * Any indications as to why he lost the election, if the Conservatives usually won? I'd imagine there were outside circumstances, rather than it being a personal reflection on him? (He also seems to have lost his deposit according to the Times) This also suggests an interesting back-story.
 * Thank you for the support. Unfortunately the links you provide are to login pages to which I am not a subscriber. University parliamentary elections were rather private affairs, little related to the swings and roundabouts of national politics. The voters elected candidates more for their standing in university circles than for their politics, though a conservative-minded electorate invariable chose Conservatives, so much so that elections were often unopposed (as in 1931). The results of the 1935 election can be viewed here. The complex system of STV makes it difficult to ascertain whether Cruttwell lost his deposit; he was not eliminated until the third ballot. Brianboulton (talk) 19:53, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I've quoted the relevant parts on your talk to see what you think. Whether you use them or not makes no difference to my support, you would be a far better judge of their significance than me. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:54, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the information is relevant, and have added a couple of sentence summarising the Times reports. Thanks for digging this out. Brianboulton (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, was there any comment or reaction from other people to the use of Cruttwell's name so frequently in Waugh's work? Was it widely known to whom Waugh was refering? --Sarastro1 (talk) 13:13, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * A lot of people who read Waugh's books and stories were "in the know", being Oxford people and socially interconnected. It probably took longer for the general reading public to cotton on; I don't recall seeing attention drawn to this aspect in contemporary reviews of the books. Brianboulton (talk) 19:53, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.