Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/CMLL World Middleweight Championship/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 01:20, 15 September 2016.

CMLL World Middleweight Championship

 * Nominator(s):  MPJ  -DK 22:31, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

This article is about a Mexican professional wrestling championship, not just a list of champions but an article on the history of the championship, rules etc. This follows the format of the CMLL World Light Heavyweight Championship which was recently promoted to FA and I have taken all input from that FAC, plus various GAs and FACs I've done on Mexican wrestling championships to hopefully produce a high-quality article worthy of the Feature Article status. I am open to any and all suggestions and always willing to work on any issues there may be.  MPJ  -DK 22:31, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Support from starship.paint

 * Why does The championship has not been vacated since then have so many references?
 * Well that's the problem with claiming something has not happened - I don't have a source stating it, but sources for each title change to show there is no interruption, I am not sure how else to prove a negative like that. MPJ  -DK 22:21, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Seems a bit ridiculous. I would write "Per the title history, the championship has not been vacated since then." Or you could use Wrestlingdata, although book sources are a priority. This goes for the later comment too. starship.paint ~  KO   01:28, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
 * - sorry there is this one more above. starship.paint ~  KO   01:42, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
 * - I think the "many references" issue is still outstanding...? See above :) starship.paint ~  KO   09:08, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * - I think Wrestlingdata and cagematch would be the way to go, I will replace the source.  MPJ  -DK 13:10, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I fail to see the relevance of the The exodus from CMLL to AAA also meant that paragraph to the CMLL World Middleweight Championship
 * It is about how CMLL promoted their middlewight division, that by the exodous they lost the Mexican National version of it, so the division focus was even more so on the CMLL version. It gives you the context of the division.  MPJ  -DK 22:21, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh and of course the fact that the champion left CMLL, forcing the title to be vacated.  MPJ  -DK 22:30, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Suggest some reordering and rewriting. In June 1992, many wrestlers left CMLL to join the newly formed Asistencia Asesoría y Administración (AAA), which significantly affected CMLL's middleweight championships. The Mexico City Boxing and Wrestling Commission allowed AAA to assume control of the Mexican National Middleweight Championship as then-reigning champion Octagón joined AAA. Meanwhile, the CMLL World Middleweight Championship was vacated due to then-champion Blue Panther's departure. Thus, CMLL held a 16-man...
 * see above starship.paint ~  KO   13:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
 * - thank you I had missed that bit, it has been updated now.  MPJ  -DK 22:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)


 * El Dandy holds the record for most CMLL World Middleweight Championship reigns with three and is one of only three wrestlers to hold the title more than once, the others being Negro Casas and Emilio Charles Jr also has too many references...?
 * Again the challenge is that it's only by comparing all championship reigns it can be definitively proven it is the longest/most/etc. I am not sure how best to source that - even if I found say a 2008 source to cover it that still leaves a 2009-present gap. Any ideas? MPJ  -DK 22:21, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Could you merge the With a total of twelve CMLL promoted championships paragraph with relevant info from the same paragraph in CMLL World Light Heavyweight Championship FA?
 * I will see what's in the FA and yes I probably can. MPJ  -DK 22:21, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Done and I will research the last major show the Middleweight Championship was defended at to add that info to the article.  MPJ  -DK 22:25, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Why does the Wrestling Title Histories book have both 2000 and 2006 version cited? starship.paint ~  KO   13:09, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * That has to be a typo, there is no 2006 version that I am aware of.  MPJ  -DK 22:21, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Does the DragonRojoJr source mention the date "November 18, 2011"? (May have to use wrestlingdata and cagematch) Likewise, does it support the info for the paragraph "In June 1992"? starship.paint ~  KO   05:48, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * bump on above starship.paint ~  KO   12:19, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * - Good point, this is covering CMLL's weekly show the day before but never states the date it took place, which can be a challenge since this and other sites do such regular coverage of the night before they never state "last night" or anything like that. I will see if other sources mention the date or Cagematch will serve for the date as well.  MPJ  -DK 16:13, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Found a source, someone who covers lucha libre on a regular basis had a "roll call of champons" and listed the date. I added it to the source already used.  MPJ  -DK 16:25, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Good work! I'm now satisfied with the quality of the article. Support starship.paint ~  KO   06:21, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Comments by LM2000

 * The last paragraph of the lede seems superfluous as the preceding sentence describes pro wrestling's scripted nature. WCW International World Heavyweight Championship was recently promoted to FA status and doesn't do this, the WT:PW RfC regarding how much of a disclaimer is needed on PPV articles may apply here as well.  The one sentence disclaimer on CMLL World Light Heavyweight Championship seems like a better alternative.
 * In "History" section, commas follow some dates but not others. For example, "In the late 1980s, EMLL..." and "On May 3, 2010, Jushin..."
 * In "History" section, " which was the first time the middleweight championship", "middleweight championship" should be capitalized as it's a proper noun. Alternatively, the "middleweight" could be dropped.LM2000 (talk) 09:38, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * - I have addressed your concerns. As for the the WCW FL, that should have a disclaimer of some sort otherwise it implies the championship was won competitively. So I adjusted to match the Feature Article disclaimer, I agree that one is better.  MPJ  -DK 13:19, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll Support this now.LM2000 (talk) 19:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk) 00:51, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Comments by NatureBoyMD

 * Is there a reason "Middleweight" is capitalized in the third sentence of lead paragraph one? The other appearances of "middleweight division" have a lowercase m.
 * Link the first instance of Octagón in "History" section paragraph three, rather than four.
 * De-link second instance of Negro Casas in "History" section paragraph five; it is already linked in paragraph three.
 * Remove the period from the Liger image caption (not a complete sentence). Alternatively, remove the comma and add "is" after his name.
 * It looks like you should capitalize "Champion" in "CMLL World Middleweight champion" under the 1991 tournament. Yes?
 * Is there a reason Kato Kung Lee is red-linked when other wrestlers without articles are simply not linked?


 * Overall, the article appears well written and sourced. NatureBoyMD (talk) 16:09, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I have addressed all the grammatical/linking issues.
 * As for the Red linked articles, I went by the guideline at WP:RED to figure out what should and should not be linked in that section. Basically, any subject that is believed to be notable enough to have an article but don't currently. I know Kato Kung Lee is notable enough for an article (I have a half-written, half-researched article on him in the works) as for Ponzona, Guerrero del Futuro, Espectro de Ultratumba, Espectro Jr. and Javier Cruz I am not so sure if they are notable enough to warrant their own articles. Ponzona and Cruz are for sure not. The other three I'm not sure, they're borderline notable so I went with not linking them - but I also have no problems adding Guerrero del Futuro, Espectro de Ultratumba and Espectro Jr., like I said I am on the fence on those three.
 * And thank you for your review and input, I appreciate your efforts to improve this.  MPJ  -DK 22:05, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I changed the first mention of the AAA to show an English translation as you've done with other wrestling companies: Asistencia Asesoría y Administración ("Assistance, Assessment, and Administration"; AAA). I also added a few commas for clarity. My edits.. Feel free to revert fully or partially if you see fit. Well done! NatureBoyMD (talk) 22:19, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Support. NatureBoyMD (talk) 18:07, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Image review by Jo-Jo Eumerus
All files have good ALT text, but some relevance and copyright issues need to be sorted. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:04, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * File:LuchaLibreObrera153.JPG: Free file on Commons. Not sure if this is the best image for the infobox as the individual depicted appears to play a minor role in the match. Where does the caption come from? Image appears elsewhere on the web in lower resolution and appears to be taken from Commons when. EXIF consistent between the uploader's other uploads, some were deleted on derivative work grounds which probably isn't an issue here.
 * File:Averno closeup.jpg: Free file on Commons. Subject does not appear to be mentioned in article and caption is unsourced. Flickr file, currently tagged as "All rights reserved" but was previously free, and free licenses cannot be revoked. Plausible EXIF that doesn't display on Flickr though, and other uploads follow the same theme.
 * File:Jushin Thunder Liger.JPG: Free file on Commons, I wonder about the copyright - if any - of the costume. File is a section farther down from the one where the topic is mentioned - the caption is sourced there as well. Both the theme, location and EXIF of the other uploads are consistent from this uploader.
 * File:Blue-Panther.jpg: Free file on Commons. File is in the section where this character is discussed. No EXIF and small resolution, as well as the general inconsistent EXIF of the other uploads by this uploader and some deleted files (and files that look like copyvios) make me suspect that we are dealing with a copyright infringing photo here.
 * Thank you Jo-Jo.
 * LuchaLibreObrera153 is of a two time champion (2004 to 2006, and again in 2010), since this article does not contain a full list of champions (that is in List of CMLL World Middleweight Champions) his reigns are not described in great detail here as there were not "stand out" details. The caption claims are covered in the List article, but can be added to this article easily enough if required.
 * Averno closeup - another champion as per the list
 * Blue Panther - since there are questions I have removed this image fro the article.
 * - and sourced, I believe that addresses your concerns?  MPJ  -DK 09:41, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Seems like. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:50, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Source review by Laser brain

 * Fn 12 - What makes cagematch.net a reliable source? They have an "about" page where they say that employees (though they call them volunteers in another place) fill out entries, but I don't see any evidence of editorial oversight or fact-checking processes. I don't see any indication either that contributors to the site are noted experts.
 * So the pro wrestling project actually mailed them and asked about their process since it was not clear to us either. They have people who are responsible for each region (US, Europe, Japan, Mexico etc.) who are well versed in wrestling in that region. Users submit results but each person provides independent verification before results are posted. It is listed here WikiProject Professional wrestling/Sources as reliable for results. See note below on why I used this one


 * Fn 13 - Same question about wrestlingdata.com. There's even less information on that site about who they are and what processes they follow.
 * I am not so sure on this one, I will remove it completly to err on the side of caution.


 * Make sure your citations to the Duncan/Will book are consistent. In one place you noted the edition and city of publication, but in others it is missing.
 * Done, good catch on that one - I've looked at it hundres of times and did not see it.

Otherwise, looks good! -- Laser brain  (talk)  00:37, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
 * thank you, I appreciate the review. So the Cagematch data was my way of finding one unifying source for the title history - at List of CMLL World Middleweight Champions each reign is sourced independently of Cagematch but for me to state "longest reign of any champion" I would technically have to use all sources in that list a total of 8 sources - it looked odd to have a citation stack that was basically [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] so I took the cagematch source (since it matches the sourced table) and had that serve as a shorter version. I am not sure of how else to source it. Any suggestions? I think someone suggested stating "See sources in X table" but I don't think that's appropriate.  MPJ  -DK 01:47, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you, . I am satisfied that everything is in order. If the pro wrestling project is satisfied with the response from cagematch, that's good enough for me. -- Laser brain  (talk)  01:52, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

-- Laser brain  (talk)  01:20, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.