Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/California State Route 78/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:Raul654 17:15, 17 January 2009.

California State Route 78

 * Nominator(s): Rschen7754 (T C)

This was the first Wikipedia article that I ever created, back in March 2005 when I was a freshman in high school. Since then, I have applied what I have learned as my Wikipedia editing skills and writing skills have improved. I was finally able to access a map archive and was able to write a comprehensive history of the route, as well as write a more solid route description. I believe that this article now meets all of the FA criteria, and I am ready to try my first FAC. Rschen7754 (T C) 23:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose/Comments from 
 * Lead
 * The route travels as a freeway through the heavily populated cities of northern San Diego County before turning into a highway running through the mountains to Julian.  - what mountains?
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 03:06, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Following this, SR 78 enters Imperial County and travels through the desert near the Salton Sea before turning north to Blythe. - is there a link to "Blythe"?
 * Yes, look at the first sentence. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The freeway section in the North County of San Diego that connects Oceanside and Escondido has been improved several times, and there are many projects slated to improve the freeway due to increasing congestion in the region. - the "the" in "the region" should be "that" because it sounds like a WP:POV (Point-of-view)
 * It... what? --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:24, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The word "the" in the sentence I outlined above where it says "the region" should be changed to that.--Truco 02:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done, but I don't see how it is POV at all. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:55, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Route Description


 * SR 78 is known as Ronald Packard Parkway from Interstate 5 in Oceanside to Interstate 15 in Escondido,[3] and Ben Hulse Highway from SR 86 near Brawley to Interstate 10 near Blythe. - is there a link to "SR 86" and "Blythe"?
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * SR 78 is part of the California Freeway and Expressway System,[7] although only the metropolitan section of SR 78 is a freeway.  - why isn't this in the lead? Most freeway articles have this in the lead.
 * This is the new standard for CA road articles (it never was the standard for freeway articles). Most of the articles have not been updated yet. Furthermore, I don't see why this should be cited as grounds for oppose at FA. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not only why I opposed it, its because of the other prose problems.--Truco 02:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The section of SR 78 from the western junction of SR 79 to the western junction with SR 86 is legally eligible for the State Scenic Highway System;[8] however, only the section in Anza Borrego Desert State Park has officially been designated as being part of the system.[9] - SR 86 is first linked here, when it should be linked in the previous sentences. If that is done, remove the link in this sentence.
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * SR 78 is a freeway from its western terminus in Oceanside to its junction with Broadway in Escondido. - freeway should be linked earlier, not here.
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph makes the prose confusing because the second paragraph begins to formally introduce the highway. I would move the first paragraph later down in the description, which will help the reader understand the description more.
 * Again, this is the new California standard; having it at the end of the route description was too late; having it in the lead violated WP:LEAD since it requires citations. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, but it seems awkward, especially for a reader who is not aware of road articles.--Truco 02:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ... the other options were worse. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:54, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, if its a policy/consensus, I can't change that.--Truco 03:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The freeway then turns southeast, continuing into San Marcos near California State University San Marcos and entering Escondido, where SR 78 has an interchange with I-15. - it would flow better IMO if a comma was added before and after the University's name.
 * The freeway then turns southeast, continuing into San Marcos near, California State University San Marcos, and entering Escondido, where SR 78 has an interchange with I-15. ??? --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I mean before "near" and after" the university name.--Truco 02:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Not necessary; having commas there are too distracting and interrupt the flow of the sentence. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, I was reading the sentence a different way.--Truco 03:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Following this, SR 78 becomes a curvy road, heading south to enter the community of Ramona as Pine Street. - "curvy road" sounds really wordy, can another word be used?
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * SR 78 then leaves Ramona as Julian Road, which continues on a curvy mountain road through Witch Creek to Santa Ysabel where it meets SR 79. - SR 79 is WP:OVERLINK (overlinked) linked above already. Also, the word "curvy" is also wordy here, same thing applies here like I stated above.
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * SR 78 and 79 run concurrently accross the headwater of the San Diego River and through the hamlet of Wynola, briefly entering Cleveland National Forest before reaching Julian as Washington Street. - typo on "across"
 * Somebody already got that. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * SR 78 and 79 turn right onto Main Street and travel through downtown Julian before SR 79 diverges south towards Cuyamaca and SR 78 heads northeast as winding Banner Road through Whispering Pines. - is "winding" needed?
 * It conveys more information than if it was left out. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What does winding in this context refer to?--Truco 02:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Twisting, curving... --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:54, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clearing that up.--Truco 03:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As it nears the Colorado River and the Arizona border, SR 78 briefly passes through Cibola National Wildlife Refuge before nearing the community of Palo Verde, where the river turns away from the highway and SR 78 enters Riverside County.[ - the word "near(ing)" is overused, use other words like "approach"
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * SR 78 then continues north for a few more miles to its terminus at I-10 a few miles west of Blythe. - "a few miles" is WP:WEASEL, the exact number of miles needs to be determined.
 * There are a couple red links, a little too much IMO, either remove them or create stub versions of those articles.
 * Removed one, redirected another. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Early History
 * Well before the designation of SR 78, a road known as the Brawley-Westmorland-Julian-Oceanside Highway connected Oceanside, Escondido, Ramona, Julian, Westmorland, and Brawley as early as around 1900. - no need for "Well" and remove the "around" because the sentence says the same thing without it.
 * Done first; restructured for second. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This road roughly followed the current routing of SR 78 from Escondido to just east of Brawley,[13] although it traveled along a different routing from Westmorland into Brawley. - "to just east" is bad wording, how about ..Escondido to eastern Brawley or something along those lines
 * There is a loss of meaning if you do that. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * How about to the east of Brawley it still says the same and is grammatically correct versus "just east"--Truco 03:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 20:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * East of the Sand Hills, there was a road from Glamis passing by Smith Well into Palo Verde which roughly follows the routing of SR 78. - comma before "which"
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Construction
 * During the 1940s, US 395 ran concurrently along the portion of SR 78 from Vista to Escondido before continuing along Santa Fe Avenue to Bonsall and Fallbrook before meeting its alignment during the 1970s. - the two "before"'s make the sentence a run on, either split it or fix the punctuation to make it a complete sentence
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Finally, in 1971, the entire routing of SR 78 as it is today began to appear on highway maps. - comma before "as" and after "today"
 * That's worse than it is right now. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Following initial construction
 * On July 1, 1999, a standoff took place between Janet Lucero, an armed woman, and the California Highway Patrol after the former allegedly threatened another driver with a gun. - "the former", what does this mean?
 * To indicate that the CHP officer did not threaten the driver. I don't see the problem with this. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I still don't understand this, when I see "former" I think of somebody of a past profession, I don't know what it means in this context. A link or explanation would help.--Truco 02:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've seen this before in published works. for more info (definition 2). --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:54, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Preceding in place or arrangement so ..."after the former (preceding in place or arrangement) allegedly threatened another driver with a gun.'' Does not make sense.--Truco 03:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's perfectly acceptable - the average American adult can understand it. I've seen it in several fiction / non-fiction works. --Rschen7754 (T C) 03:16, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Another link: --Rschen7754 (T C) 03:24, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Future
 * Plans call for adding more lanes to Interstate 5 and SR 78 as well as for the construction of a new ramp from SR 78 westbound to I-5 southbound and from I-5 southbound to SR 78 eastbound. - comma before "as"
 * Not necessary. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * In the past, there was a direct ramp from SR 78 westbound to I-5 southbound which avoided this traffic signal; however, it has since been replaced by a park and ride. - comma before "which"
 * Not necessary. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * After a rain during the desert monsoon season, these washes can be left with several inches of water, sand, and rock debris. - "After a rain" makes no sense, do you mean After it rains..?
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Major intersections
 * The postmile column is confusing because some have numbers and others are listed as "R6.19" it confuses the reader, I suggest adding notes or a key to explain this.
 * It's explained just under the header... --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:09, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As well as the italics, it needs to be elaborated.
 * Done. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * A lot of red links are present here as well.
 * That's the WP:ELG standard. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * References
 * The web references need consistent formatting, especially with the dates because some of them have it as "2008-05-23" while others are "February 2008" it needs to be consistent throughout.Truco 01:46, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Not entirely possible - cite news uses different date formats in the same citation. I can try and standardize all the "retrieved" dates and all the "accessed" and "published" ones if you want, but total consistency is a red herring. --Rschen7754 (T C) 03:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, well somebody went through and cleaned it up. All actionable objections addressed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 18:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I really hope you did some research on this road before bringing it here. In two seconds I found that it is the longest State Route in California. Don't see that in the article. What else is missing? history, perhaps...? Ling.Nut (talk&mdash;WP:3IAR) 11:11, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no way that it is the longest state route in California. What's your source? --Rschen7754 (T C) 18:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * California State Route 99 is 424.85 miles, California State Route 78 is 215.39 miles. Other longer routes include but are not limited to SR 33, SR 1, SR 36, SR 49, SR 58, ... the list goes on and on. This objection is frivolous, especially as I did put about 8-10 hours of research into this. --Rschen7754 (T C) 18:37, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose on criterion 3 File:California State Route 78.svg - We need a reliable source for the information in this map per WP:IUP. You can email the creator and obtain the information. Awadewit (talk) 16:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Posted at the user's talk. --Rschen7754 (T C) 18:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You're joking. Is and  good enough? --NE2 18:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What he wants is information about where you got the GIS data to make the map... - Algorerhythms (talk) 18:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean "she" :)" –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  18:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean "the GIS data I created"? I created it. --NE2 18:52, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * In that case, you had to have had a map that you used as a reference for creating the GIS data, which I assume is the map you posted above... - Algorerhythms (talk) 18:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about positioning, that was mainly traced over NORTAD highway data. As for numbering and status, sources were the state laws and those cited in the junction list. --NE2 19:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So somebody just needs to find the NORTAD link and put it on the image page? --Rschen7754 (T C) 09:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Whatever sources were used have still not been added to the image description page. Awadewit (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I added a whole bunch - is that good? --Rschen7754 (T C) 19:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Could someone familiar with road sources evaluate these? I assume you could make the map from these, but I don't really know. Awadewit (talk) 19:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment I'm not going to look through the whole thing, but it appears all the early history is sourced to maps. That's not a problem sourcewise, but it means some things may be missing that would appear in news accounts or local histories. --NE2 18:52, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe I got all the articles that the newspaper index had. That being said, the index may not go back to the early 1900's (and one might have to sit in the library all day going through newspaper after newspaper on microfilm). I'm not even sure if the microfilm archives go back all the way to 1867 - I can check... --Rschen7754 (T C) 19:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no index for the years of 1903-about 1920. I got all the articles the index had, unless they used some really obscure term to put the articles under. --Rschen7754 (T C) 21:35, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You should try to get a copy of . --NE2 23:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I can try next time I get to the library; however, I'm not sure that it would add much to the article (date 1969, and I have a few other articles from that era). --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, you have articles about the west end from that era, but this is a long road. It seems to me that there's nothing about why the road was built, which should be available. --NE2 23:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.