Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Carolwood Pacific Railroad/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 09:02, 3 April 2018.

Carolwood Pacific Railroad

 * Nominator(s): Jackdude 101  talk cont 03:05, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

This article is about the Carolwood Pacific Railroad (CPRR), a ridable miniature railroad run by Walt Disney in his backyard. The locomotive was produced from scratch by the Walt Disney Studios' machine shop, as well as several of its train cars. The wooden portions of the caboose, including its miniature interior, were built by Disney himself. The CPRR was a product of Disney's lifelong passion for trains, and it inspired him to create what would become known as Disneyland. The work experience gained from building the CPRR's rolling stock, its structures, and the landscaping around it were applied towards building Disneyland and its various components, including the Disneyland Railroad. Because of its strong importance in terms of initiating the Disney theme park chain, and the very close connection it had to Walt Disney, I feel that it is worthy of earning FA status. I look forward to reading all of your comments and working towards successfully completing this review. Jackdude 101 talk cont 03:05, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Support – Important in the context of the history of Disney and Disneyland. After receiving GA status, a FA nomination follows naturally. In addition to small changes in the text, I have contributed one photo and the track drawing. --Janke | Talk 07:17, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment: As the GA reviewer, I suggested many grammatical changes to the article. I also checked the web references extensively. Although this isn't an excuse for additional FA review, I think the article would be suitable for FA based on my suggested changes. I'm not sure if my GA review poses a COI, though. epicgenius (talk) 15:25, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Support – I translated parts of the article to German and was impressed by the quality. Thus, I endorse it to become a featured article. --NearEMPTiness (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Support – I feel that the article in its present form adequately satisfies sections 1-4 of WP:FACR and should be promoted. --GoneIn60 (talk) 03:27, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Support - I just read the article and FA review and it seems to fulfill the FA criteria and should be promoted. Good work. L293D (☎ • ✎) 15:22, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Sources review
All sources look in good order and of the appropriate quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 15:50, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Image review

 * File:Walt Disney's Carolwood Barn - CPRR Logo.jpg: Use of the image is fine, what is the license of the logo if any?
 * That specific image is a close-up of one of the CPRR's train cars. There is no license for that logo, as it was made only for Walt Disney's private use and had no commercial purposes. Even modern versions of the logo displayed in public on Disney property like this one here: File:Boulder Ridge Villas - CPRR Logo.jpg have no copyright symbols. Jackdude 101  talk cont 22:21, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * When was that logo published first? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:11, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Either 1949 or 1950. Jackdude 101  talk cont 12:19, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * In that case,   be the correct license template, providing that the logo was published without a copyright notice. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 12:42, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * License template added. Jackdude 101  talk cont 13:47, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * File:Waltlayout.gif: License and use seem fine for me.
 * File:LillybelleDland.jpg: Use is fine, but this use gives "J-E Nystrom" as the photographer; is that person?
 * Yes. Jackdude 101  talk cont 22:21, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Where is it said so? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:11, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Elsewhere on the same website here:, it is noted that J-E Nystrom runs the website, and a picture of him on that page is also on his Wikipedia user page. Jackdude 101  talk cont 12:19, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 12:42, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I am Jan-Eric (J-E) Nyström, of Helsinki, Finland. --Janke | Talk 19:12, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * File:C.K. Holliday (34441176585).jpg: License and use seem fine for me.
 * File:WaltsBarn.jpg: License and use seem fine for me.
 * Good ALT text. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:59, 8 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment/Support from Aoba47
 * For this part (In addition to the Disneyland Railroad, there are also steam railroad attractions in the Magic Kingdom within Walt Disney World in Florida; Tokyo Disneyland next to Tokyo, Japan; and Disneyland Park near Paris, France.), I would name the city in Florida, as it is a little odd to name the specific cities for two of the three parks, and then only include the state in one.
 * I noted in the article that Walt Disney World is in the vicinity of Orlando, specifically. Jackdude 101  talk cont 22:20, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Aside from that one comment, I could not find much in the article that required improvement so I will support this for promotion. Have a great rest of your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 19:18, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Nominator comments
To recap, the article has completed an image review, a source review, and has three six confirmed supporters. Also, as Epicgenius mentioned above, this article had an extensive review of its prose last month during its GA review. Unless there is anything outstanding that you can find, it appears that this review is ready to close and that this article should be upgraded to FA status. Jackdude 101 talk cont 22:29, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: Although we have 3 supports, I don't think we have had sufficient review against the FA criteria yet. I haven't seen any commentary yet on 1a, 1b, 1c or 1d, and I think we need to establish that the article meets these criteria before we promote. Sarastro (talk) 21:25, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Comment I support this FA candidate because I find it comprehensive and agreeing with the literature on the subject. Being a (retired) cartoon animator myself, I have a large collection of books about Disney. The main opus about the Carolwood RR is indeed the 20-year old Broggie book, referenced here. In my opinion, the article fulfills all the criteria in categories 1-4. --Janke | Talk 19:09, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

The recent comments from Janke and GoneIn60 above appear to have addressed your concerns. Let me know if this sufficient to conclude the review. Jackdude 101 talk cont 14:16, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: I'm still not seeing the depth of review we need. For example: "Articles about the CPRR appeared in several magazines, including the September 1951 issue of Look magazine.[19][31] These articles attracted visitors interested in riding Disney's miniature steam train.[19][32] On weekends, when the railroad was operating, he allowed them to do so, even allowing some to become "guest engineers" and drive the train". These sentences contain redundancy and do not quite make sense. What does "he allowed them to do so" mean here? It presumably means ride the trains, but the previous sentence was about reading an article and does not quite make it clear what it attracted the readers towards. The magazine? The railway? Another example of an issue is that we have the words "Walt Disney" 45 times in the article; while some use of his full name is unavoidable, this seems like overkill and some paragraphs have the combination several times. We need to rethink this a little, especially as we are using the names of companies which make this quite repetitive. Sarastro (talk) 22:35, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I consolidated the latter two sentences you mentioned above into the following: "These articles attracted visitors interested in the CPRR to the home of Disney, who invited them to ride and occasionally drive his miniature train.[19][32]". As for the repetitive usage of "Walt Disney" when referring to the man himself, I limited it to one instance per section in the article. All of the remaining instances are part of company and museum names, image and source titles, or category links in the article. Jackdude 101  talk cont 00:29, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Comments: I'm recusing as coordinator on this one as I think that's probably the simplest solution. I've edited the history section quite a bit as I think that needed a little work. But outside of that section, this looks fine from a prose viewpoint. I'm happy to support once my comments have been looked at. Sarastro (talk) 12:06, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking charge and doing the rest of the review yourself. I'm fine with your copy-edits. I made one reference correction to one of them you moved, and noted that Disney worked as a news butcher on the trains themselves (as opposed to station platforms, for instance), which also acts as a segue into the next sentence. Jackdude 101  talk cont 16:40, 25 March 2018 (UTC)


 * "Disney's backyard railroad attracted visitors interested in riding his miniature steam train": This sentence in the lead does not really fit with those around it; we have one on the locomotive, one on the railroad then this. I suspect at least a paragraph break is needed. Also, why else would visitors come to a railroad if they weren't interested in the steam train? Then we have "On weekends, when the railroad was operating, he allowed them to do so"; they couldn't really do so if it was not operating. We could combine all this into one simpler sentence like "Disney allowed visitors to ride his train at weekends."
 * Done. Jackdude 101  talk cont 16:40, 25 March 2018 (UTC)


 * "It was Disney's lifelong fascination with trains, as well as his interest in miniature models, that led to the creation of the CPRR.": This sentence, at the end of the lead, does not really fit in that paragraph, and would be better elsewhere in the lead.
 * Done. Jackdude 101  talk cont 16:40, 25 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I also wonder could we restructure the lead slightly? Maybe have one separate paragraph on the "history" and merge the (current) 2nd and 3rd paragraphs?
 * Done. Jackdude 101  talk cont 16:40, 25 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I've done a little bit of trimming, which you can revert if you're not happy, but I wonder do we really need the section about how he visited other hobbyists?
 * There were several hobbyists that Disney visited to seek inspiration, but I only mentioned the two most notable people: Ollie Johnston and Ward Kimball. Both were Disney animators and railfans, and the railroad owned by Kimball, the Grizzly Flats Railroad, is part of this same article series. Jackdude 101  talk cont 16:40, 25 March 2018 (UTC)


 * We are quite heavily dependent on the Broggie source; I wonder is this railroad mentioned in other places? For instance, was this the first such miniature railroad? Given that they are ubiquitous all over the world, not just in Disney parks, can we trace the wider influence of this? Sarastro (talk) 12:06, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The reason why the Broggie book is used often in the article is because it's the definitive piece of literature on this topic. The author Michael Broggie knew Walt Disney when he was a child, and he, his brother, and their father Roger E. Broggie (the man most directly responsible for making the CPRR a reality), were frequent guests to the Disney home, where they would help maintain and operate the CPRR. This was by no means the first ridable miniature railway, which have been present in amusement parks and recreation areas since at least the late 19th century. Jackdude 101  talk cont 16:40, 25 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I have addressed all of your comments. Jackdude 101  talk cont 16:40, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Support: I'm happy now that this meets the criteria. Nice piece of work. Sarastro (talk) 17:08, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Given that Sarastro has recused as the coordinator for this review, the decision is now yours whether it gets promoted. Jackdude 101 talk cont 17:12, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 09:02, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.