Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Charles Darwin/Archive 2

Charles Darwin
Self-submit that objections raised previously (Featured article candidates/Charles Darwin/archive 1) have now been met, and this is a reasonably worthy candidate...dave souza 06:48, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Qualified support; good article overall, but I'd like to see better captions. Johnleemk | Talk 14:41, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Captions revised..dave souza 10:03, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Support - captions seem to be quite good now. There are a few small changes that I will make in the article, but overall it seems like a totally appropriate FA.  I would like to see careful, each fact footnoting, but I know I am in a very small minority on this, and it's hardly a FA criteria. JesseW, the juggling janitor 00:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose, a few format issues should be addresses, first the main article links breaking up the Orchids, Variation, Descent of Man and Worms section don't do much for readibility, would it be possible work them into the text, after all a blue link in the text is effectively the same as a main link in this case. I also think the works section of the article is poorly organised, list of publications would be nicer on the eye if it was presented as a table, (Year!Title/URL1!Alternate URL), even if you don't make a table this section needs to be tidied up. Why is there a section on links to his works, when all his works are listed as links anyway? The Alternative links also repeats the resources already listed. Finally the Commemoration section should be written as prose rather that a list of points.--nixie 04:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * These issues have been addressed, but I don't have the expertise to make a table of the works section so have tried revising the formatting....dave souza 10:03, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose, but a little reluctantly. Since every major subsection under "Biography" seems to have its own satelite article, it seems like a lot of page space is wasted in duplicating those articles. That being said, I think the overall quality of this article is better than the quality of the satelite articles (the "inception of theory" section is much better written than the Inception of Darwin's theory article, IMO), and the overall quality of the article itself is quite good. It just needs to be a little more controlled in layout, IMO. – Seancdaug 16:10, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * Layout being tightened, any further ideas welcome...dave souza 10:03, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * This is a good article related to one of the most important scientific topics ever. I'll probably support the nomination after going through the article to tweak the text on the clause level. Tony 01:28, 9 September 2005 (UTC) At the opening, I wonder about the statement 'who achieved lasting fame as originator of the theory of evolution through natural selection'. The two planks of the theory are natural selection and sexual selection; if you feel that it's inappropriate to mention the latter at the opening, can 'through natural selection' simply be removed at this point? Tony 01:33, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The reason for qualifying evolution as "through natural selection" is that Darwin is often wrongly characterised as having introduced evolution as an idea, though theories of evolution were current and controversial throughout his early life. My non-expert thought was that sexual selection is a sub-set of natural selection, and as it wasn't covered in the famous Origin but added in Descent of Man, having it in the intro might confuse some people. Thanks for tackling the layout/style concerns, work in progress....dave souza 10:03, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's a subset of natural selection. Victorian and 20th-century scientists had a history of neglecting this second half of the theory for 'moral' reasons, and it is still all too common for people to ignore sexual selection; yet it is so important. Accordingly, I strongly argue that it be announced at the start. For this reason, I strongly argue that it be announced at the start. Tony 10:11, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Will go along with that. In his intro to his abridged Origin Richard Leakey describes sexual selection as an "accessory mechanism" (not necessarily a great authority, just had the book to hand), but it's certainly an important part of the theory....dave souza 11:01, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Not happy at all with the section entitled 'Return to celebrity and science', which I've just slightly edited.
 * Was he a celebrity before he left? I don't think so.
 * 'printed for distribution': isn't that just 'published'?
 * Lots of things hit you unexplained: 'plants'—are they the fossils previously mentioned? 'radicalism', 'controversial', 'hazards', 'Grant'—all a jumble that needs to be disentangled and explained to the poor reader.
 * 'Chile, and the South American landmass, was slowly rising'—Isn't Chile part of that landmass?
 * Why 'startling'? Making the account colourful is fine, but it's becoming opaque.
 * 'the collections of others'—other finches? other islands?
 * 'Eras's lady friend'—Is that your abbreviation?

And on and on ...

I'm starting to wonder whether this is too big a job to bring up to standard. Can you entice some other editors to help? It's a very important article, and I want this nomination to succeed. However, at the moment, I must oppose it. Tony 08:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * This is extremely valuable feedback. The aim of minimising article size while including a lot of information has resulted in obscurity. I'll go over this section now and aim for clarity...dave souza 18:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I've gone through the next section—'Family, work, and development of theory', the title of which sums up a problem I have: the detail in which relatively inconsequential aspects of his life are treated, compared with his intellectual, scientific development. His relationship with Aldous Huxley is dismissed in one, stubby little sentence (six words, is it?). I think some of the account of the more mundane aspects of his life should be trimmed in this summary article. I've gone through this section making numerous alterations to the language. Please look at the commas I've inserted. Tony 01:37, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Barbara Shack 19:25, 24 November 2005 (UTC)I've gone through the whole article except Darwin's family. I hope I've improved it. Please check.