Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Charles Kanaʻina/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 23:57, 30 November 2016.

Charles Kanaʻina

 * Nominator(s): Mark Miller (talk) 08:40, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

This article is about a central figure of the old Kingdom of Hawaii, father of King William Charles Lunalilo and husband of Kaahumanu III. Charles Kanaʻina was a part of the Kamehameha Dynasty and the nobility of Hawaii, once owning much of the Iolani Palace grounds, where his son was born. He left a legacy as one of the largest landowners in Hawaii. His probate documents have added greatly to Hawaiian genealogy with the personal genealogies of much of the surviving royal family, submitted by the families themselves.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:40, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Image review
 * Suggest scaling up the petition
 * I have the larger digital image. It requires stitching together but can be reproduced in a larger scale.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:14, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅--Mark Miller (talk) 06:56, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Working on this. Had to find the original file.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:34, 10 October 2016 (UTC)


 * File:Kanaina_(PP-97-12-002).jpg: if the photographer is unknown, how do you know they died over 100 years ago?
 * We know it was not James J. Williamson as the image predates his buying of the Dickson's Photography studio that was responsible for portraits of the royal family. Menzies Dickson died in 1891 and is attributed to this and the following image photographed when Lunalilo became king in 1873; File:Lunalilo (PP-98-15-018).jpg.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:29, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * To demonstrate that it was the Dickson's studio, here are the full images from this photography session;File:Kanaina (PP-97-12-001).jpg and an image known to be photographed by Menzies Dickson of Princes Lydia Domimis;File:Liliuokalani, photograph by Menzies Dickson (PP-98-10-013).jpg. They are seated in the same chair. Historically we know these images were taken in his studio. That much is well documented. Here is an image of that entire chair in front of Queen Emma; File:Queen Emma of Hawaii, photograph by Menzies Dickson (PPWD-15-2-036).jpg.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:00, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Just double checked US copyright and I believe (could be wrong) that the copyright for the image is the life of the author plus 70 years. If it is 100 years this image is still in public domain as this author died 125 years ago. The other photographer of the royal family died 90 years ago.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:46, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ Attribution made to Menzies Dickson and a US PD tag added.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:59, 8 October 2016 (UTC)


 * File:Kaahumanu_with_servant.jpg: what is the lithographer's date of death?
 * Louis Choris died in 1828. This was printed in Voyage Pittoresque Autour du Monde, Paris in 1822.
 * ✅ Added publishing date and source (no convenience link at the moment) and double checked to make sure author birth and death date was present as artist.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:34, 9 October 2016 (UTC)


 * File:Prince_Lunalilo_(PP-98-15-015).jpg: source link is broken, needs US PD tag
 * ✅ Someone else had done both on October 6, 2016.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:59, 8 October 2016 (UTC)


 * File:Hartwell_petition_letter.jpg: source link is dead, when/where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:01, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The Hartwell petition is part of The Kingdom of Hawaii government documents because the case was heard before the Kingdom Supreme Court and this is actually the court decision to agree to the petititon form from the Court used to make the petition request. While it is a probate case, it was a public case at the time and all documentation was available and reprinted in newspapers and in "Reports of Decisions made by the Kingdom of Hawaii Supreme Court". The actual image of the Courts decision on the petition request was first published, to my knowledge, when the digital collection first went online but is in the public domain as part of US State and Federal government documents. The text of the image (probably badly titled) was first published the same year the document was made: 1877, in both English and Hawaiian language newspapers. I will take a look at the Commons page to update the lack of a convenience link but the true source is the Hawaii State Archives (ironically once the Kana'ina Building now moved to the Kekāuluohi building, on land the couple owned).--Mark Miller (talk) 03:14, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ I have checked about every route to cover bases and it seems that Hartwell died over the 70 years required for non-published works for his handwriting, if such copyright was accurate, but he was working for the Crown which is apart of the government so that point might be moot anyway. The documents age, ownership by the US government today by recognized copyright law as well as other factors makes this public domain today.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:49, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
 * These are excellent concerns that do require attention. Thank you User:Nikkimaria. While I have replied to some of these concerns, it is 10:30pm my time (California) and late. I will take action on the images by tomorrow evening,if not sooner.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:32, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Break
Notes from image review appear to be accomplished.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:51, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

I have User:Ucucha/HarvErrors script on my .js  It shows me errors that editors without that script don't see. The first thing that jumped out at me were Thought you might like to know. If you don't see those error messages, you can if you put the HarvErrors script on your .js Haven't look at the entire article, or any other sourcing at the moment. — Maile (talk) 00:53, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Citations
 * Ref 20 (Judd 1975) says "Harv error: link from #CITEREFJudd1975 doesn't point to any citation."
 * Ref 30 (Sheldon 1877) says "Harv error: link from #CITEREFSheldon1877 doesn't point to any citation."
 * Freycinet, Kelly, Louis Claude Desaulses de, Marion (1978) says "Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFFreycinet.2C_Kelly1978"
 * Sheldon, H.L. (1897) says "Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFSheldon1897."
 * Added. See them now. I will look at this.--Mark Miller (talk) 13:15, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ fixed.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:40, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Comments by Mike Christie
Oppose. I think there are too many issues with the prose for promotion at the moment. Below is a list of some issues; in addition I thiink the prose is a little wooden throughout. I'll finish the review and revisit once these points are addressed -- I stopped reviewing at the "Lunalilo Trust" section.


 * "She was also Married to Kamehameha II": any reason for the capital M?
 * ✅ Corrected.


 * "in a sacred neighborhood in Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii": given that the geographical context is clearly Hawaii, I'd say you certainly don't need "Hawaii" here, and I'd suggest cutting Oahu too, and linking Honolulu instead.


 * "The compound would eventually become the official Royal Residence of the Hawaiian Royal Family when Kekūanāoa would build Hale Aliʻi in the center of the families estates as a gift to his daughter Victoria Kamāmalu. The site would become the Iolani Palace and Palace Walk." Tenses are a bit tortured here, and I think technically inaccurate; to my ear it should be "when Kekūanāoa built Hale Aliʻi".  I'm not clear what the second sentence means; the compound is the site?  So the Iolani Palace and Palace Walk are the Royal Residence?  If so, how about "The compound would eventually become the the Iolani Palace (the official Royal Residence of the Hawaiian Royal Family) and Palace Walk when Kekūanāoa built Hale Aliʻi in the center of the families estates as a gift to his daughter Victoria Kamāmalu"?
 * ✅ Yes, exactly. I don't know why that was'nt edited in that manner to begin with.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * "living there from Kamehameha II up to Kalakaua": why give this in reigns rather than dates? To someone unfamiliar with the history this isn't very informative.
 * ✅ I changed it to; "living there through five monarchs, from the 1820s to 1877". I feel the number of rulers to come and go while he lived there has EV. Hope that works.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:48, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * "Having died intestate, probate hearings proceeded for 5 years": needs rephrasing; the probate hearings didn't die intestate.
 * ✅ That now reads;
 * --Mark Miller (talk) 04:58, 25 November 2016 (UTC)


 * "Final adjudication went to several of Kanaʻina's cousins": suggest "On final adjudication his property went to several of Kanaʻina's cousins" assuming that's what is meant.
 * ✅ See above.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:59, 25 November 2016 (UTC)


 * "The third of five children to [Eia] Ka-makakaualii (father)": not sure what the bracketed "[Eia]" is telling us.
 * ✅ That is how the source had the name. We can easily lose the brackets.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:01, 25 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The first sentence is a bit awkward because of the need to put "father" and "mother" in parentheses as the names are not familiar enough to most eyes for the gender to be obvious. How about recasting as: "Charles Kanaʻina Eia was born about May 4, 1798 at Napoʻopoʻo, Hawaiʻi.  Kanaʻina was the third of five children: his father, [Eia] Ka-makakaualii, was the son of Makakaualii II and Kapalaoa, and his mother, Kauwā Palila, was a daughter of Moana Wahine and Palila Nohomualani. Eia and Kauwā's other four children were named Naʻea, Iʻahuʻula, Kahele and Kaikumoku."?
 * ✅--Mark Miller (talk) 05:21, 25 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The second paragraph of the lineage section takes us quite a long way back. Do we really need this in a biographical article about him?  Perhaps just mention any particularly famous ancestors, and the line through which the descent comes.
 * Lunalilo was the last Kamehameha monarch and is much like being a direct descendant of the Plantagenet line in England. Let me see if this can be edited for brevity in the manner you suggest.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:21, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * In Hawaiian history, particularly with the alii, genealogy is extremely important and you will see it mentioned in this particular manner in almost every source due to the manner in which these figures actually fought over genealogy issues that is historically documented and became something of a long standing issue. I think this requires context similar to how it is done at the article for Liliuokalani. let me see if I can copy edit this better.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:01, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Suggesting glossing heiau inline.
 * "In July 1844 Kekūanāoa began building a large home here as a gift to his daughter Victoria Kamāmalu. Instead, Kamehameha III would buy the estate and use as his Royal Residence after moving the capitol of the kingdom to Honolulu. It would become the Iolani Palace." Suggest "large home there" rather than "here". Also, why "Instead"?  Did "Kekūanāoa" fail to complete building the home?  If so, I'd make that clearer.
 * 'he was granted the style (manner of address) of "His Highness"': I'd make this "the title of" and link title to style (manner of address).
 * "He was considered the grandnephew of Kamehameha I, and second cousin to King Kamehameha V, King Kamehameha IV, and Princess Victoria Kamāmalu, through his mother, Kekāuluohi, who was the cousin of Elizabeth Kīnaʻu (later called Kaʻahumanu II)." Why do we need all this genealogical information? Can we just say "He was Kamehameha' I's grandnephew, and was declared eligible to succeed ..."?
 * Context issue again and also needs expansion. Genealogy is an important part of Hawaiian culture. Because of this, the very question of Lunalilo's fitness to rule was brought into question by other family members (Kamehameha IV and his brother Kamehameha V, who disliked Lunalilo) and a part of it was whether of not he was directly descended from Kamehameha I. He was but the information on this page was just added and needs further mention. Lunalilo publically stated that he was not a grandson of Kamehameha (he was a 3x great grandson) but the grandnephew. The issue relates to Kanaina in several ways as his paternal line leads to Kamehameha and his maternal line leads to Kamehameha's brother but she was also a wife of that monarch. Also Lunalilo had his mothers remains removed from the Royal Tomb and moved and deposited at sea, then wrote his will to have a crypt built for himself and his father over the disrespect he felt he and his mother had recieved. Here is where I think the article needs a bit of an expansion. I also have some great shots of the Lunalo Crypt where he and Kanaina are buried, new photos from this past summer in high resolution.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:42, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:01, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * "sent to the Chief's Children's School (later called the Royal School) when it was founded": can we include the year?
 * "When Kanaʻina died, the court appointed nine trustees, six of which would take part in the militia that overthrew the monarchy and also take part in the new provisional government." There's no mention before this in the article of a military overthrow of the monarchy; more context is needed.
 * Hi Mark, it looks like you've edited the article since the above comments were posted but could you respond to them here so we all know where we're at? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:35, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the extensive notes. I will respond shortly.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:04, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Just reading through the notes I see can see you are an immense help to the article, whether it makes FA or not. Many of the issues your raise are things I have begun to see. Thanks for giving me a bullet list to work from.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:42, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks! If this doesn't pass, or if you're too busy to work on it at the moment, I'd be happy to work with you on the talk page after FAC if you like. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 10:22, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I've struck the points you've addressed; leave a note here when you're ready for me to look at the other points. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:26, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll continue on.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:30, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Closing comment
I don't doubt this can make FA at some stage but as it's been open almost two months and there's still clearly quite some way to go, I'm going to archive and ask that the improvements continue outside the FAC process. After that (or two weeks from now, whichever is longer) you can renominate. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:57, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 23:57, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.