Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cleomenean War/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:15, 25 April 2010.

Cleomenean War

 * Nominator(s): Kyriakos (talk) 11:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it meets Featured article standards. I created the article in 2007 and it passed a GAC and currently holds A-Class status and failed a FAC here in December 2009. Since then however, I believe that all the major issue brought up in the unsuccessful attempt have been fixed. Kyriakos (talk) 11:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments. It certainly has some great maps now. I fixed a few bad links. The external link to doesn't seem to go where it should go. Ucucha 12:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply. I've fixed the link so that it redirects to the right page. Kyriakos (talk) 20:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments -- Impressed by the prose; although I've made a few mods here and there, I think it reads extremely well. The maps and illustrations are also useful, and I can see that all have alt text.  No dabs either, according to the checker.  A few things:
 * Presentation-wise, the article might benefit from alternating the positions of the maps and pictures, left then right.
 * Done. Where possible, I've altered the position of the images. Kyriakos (talk) 23:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Walbank describes this raid as being 'an impressive demonstration, but it had no effect other than to make it even more clear that Cleomenes had to be defeated in a pitched battle -- Firstly, a direct quote should be in double inverted commas; secondly, where does the quote end?
 * Done. I fixed the quotation marks. Kyriakos (talk) 23:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't gone deeply into the sourcing, but will try to do so in next few days. All up though so far, very well done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:23, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Returned to check over citations. The style looks odd to me in places, and it's certainly inconsistent:
 * The odd part for me is the bullet-pointing of multiple citations, e.g. #13. Multiple citations are usually treated identically, each with their own ref tags.
 * Reply. I find this method more effective than having multiple citations on the page for the same fact.
 * You seem to end most citations with a full stop (period) but not all (e.g. #1 vs. #2) - should be consistent.
 * Done.
 * Sometimes you use "p." for page number, sometimes not - again pls be consistent (I would say use "p.").
 * '''Done.
 * Sometimes when you use "p." you have a space before the actual number, somethimes not - be consistent.
 * Done.
 * Sometimes you have a comma between author and title, sometimes a full stop (e.g. #13) - should be commas consistently.
 * 1) Done. Kyriakos (talk) 22:41, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You can merge identical citations, e.g. Hammond p.342 in #5 and #7, or the William Smith ones. I'm happy to show you how if you're not sure.
 * Reply. With these ones, I think that the article is fine as they I prefer them these citations to be together appear in the order they are in, in the article rather than in a mass. Kyriakos (talk) 07:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There are still other little things but if you can look after these and go through all with a fine tooth comb to be consistent, it'll be a big improvement. I'm just about ready to support but these niggly little things need to be tidied for the article to qualify among WP's best work. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:19, 14 April 2010 (UTC).


 * Comment - there seem to be places where it isn't exactly clear who is being referred to, Antigonus III Doson of Macedon usually involved. For example: "He wanted the Macedonian king to come to the Peloponnese and defeat Cleomenes, in return for control of Acrocorinth.[20]  This was not a sacrifice that the League was willing to make, however."  He presumably refers to Aratus, even though Antigonus is closer in proximity to the pronoun?  The next line also doesn't make much sense.  Did the League ultimately agree or not?  Clarification is desirable. Lambanog (talk) 19:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply. I've clarified the sentences. Kyriakos (talk) 22:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments
 * Is it Yonch or Yonah? Plus I didn't see Warry in the notes... oh, and which of the four works cited to Plutarch is the parent of these: Plutarch, 21 & Plutarch, 24.?
 * Is Niehbur German or Danish? &bull; Ling.Nut 02:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply. I've fixed the Plutarch links and removed Warry, he must have remained from an earlier version of the piece. Niehbur was Danish born but of German descent. Kyriakos (talk) 06:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

No other issues; will support once this is clarified. Ucucha 15:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support for an engaging and comprehensive article. Ucucha 23:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "These defeats took such a toll on Antigonus that he considered advancing his attack of the palisade and moving his army to Sicyon."—don't you mean here that he considered abandoning the attack?
 * Done. Kyriakos (talk) 21:37, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Support. A nicely done article. I made a few minor tweaks.  Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Support no real sticking points, although I'm not clear what Ptolemy III had against remote Macedon.  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  15:04, 19 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The citations are strange. Please do not leave raw links in citations; these should be expanded to incorporate the links:
 * Smith, William, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, "[1]".


 * Sandy Georgia (Talk) 21:22, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Kyriakos (talk) 11:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Support, great article. Very engaging and a pleasure to read. I do have just a few comments though, but none that would prevent me from supporting this fine article. Overall, again, very great article! &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 16:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Taking advantage of a rumor that he had been killed during the fighting, Aratus attacked and seized Mantinea" - who is "he", Cleomenes?
 * Unfortunately in this context not much as works for example: "Taking advantage of a rumor that Aratus had been killed during the fighting, Aratus/(he) attacked and seized Mantinea". Kyriakos (talk) 23:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Cleomenes recalled his uncle Archidamus V from his exile in Messene to ascend the Eurypontid throne..." This confuses me just a bite. You have not indicated that the Eurypontid kingship was vacant so why would he ascend the throne? Was that king also killed, and not just his son, or was the previous heir about to ascend?
 * This question is answered earlier in the paragraph. Kyriakos (talk) 12:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Employing the men he considered most likely to oppose him, he captured Heraea and Asea." - was he hoping they would get killed, or just bribing them? This is not clear.
 * I noticed Laconia is linked multiple times throughout the article; you should only link the first occurrence.
 * "He also armed 2,000 of the ex-helots in Macedonian style to counter the White Shields" - what is Macedonian style? a type of military formation and armament? Perhaps there is an article you could link to?
 * "The capture of Megalopolis shook the Achaean League" - "The destruction of Megalopolis shook the Achaean League" might be more accurate
 * "The Spartans, overwhelmed by the deeper Macedonian phalanx, were routed, but Cleomenes managed to escape with a small group of men." - maybe say "deeper ranks", someone unfamiliar with Greek battles may not understand what is meant by just "deeper"
 * "...most of their army was routed." - but the following sentence says it was mostly destroyed, not routed. A reword might be in order.
 * "With Cleomenes' defeat, Sparta's power collapsed and it fell into the hands of tyrants" - do you mean a "group of tyrants" all at once, or "successive tyrants"?
 * Plutarch as a source for a lot of the article is a little worrying. Obviously he would be the source used by most other in their works about this war though. However, using secondary sources interpreting Plutarch would add a layer of scrutiny to Plutarch's possible biases. I am not concerned enough to oppose over this, but it would be better to rely less on such an antiquarian source. WP:PRIMARY comes into play a bit here.


 * Comment The maps need some refinement. From a comment above, i take it the maps are new, so they must be a great improvement already.  But, the top map in the article shows "Arcadia" and "Achaean League" labelled but not "Achaea", and the 2nd map shows "Achaea" and "Achaean League" labelled but not "Arcadia".  You need to have both "Achaea" and "Arcadia" on the same map, so that they can convey something, that Arcadia is the mountainous central portion and that Achaea is the northernmost, coastal part, and to dispell possibility that they are just labels moved around within the big red region to fit wherever they can fit.  Also, the peninsula labelled just "Boetia" includes Attica and in particular Athens, which could usefully be labelled (they are names used at that time, right?).  Thumb map at right here shows locations.  I for one tend to forget whether Athens was in Arcadia, Achaea, or Attica, and wondered where it was on the map here.  Putting a label for Athens onto the map would avoid my discomfort, and perhaps other readers'.  Hope this helps! --doncram (talk) 17:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments
 * ephors are referred to as "who" and "which".... should be consistent.
 * they (ephors) were sworn to uphold the rule of Sparta's kings...shouldn't it be had sworn?
 * In 226 BC, the citizens of Mantinea appealed to Cleomenes to expel the Achaean garrison from the city. One night, he and his troops crept into the city and removed the Achaean garrison before marching off to Tegea..... This could be either more detailed, or more succinct. In 226 BC, responding to a request from the citizens of Mantinea, Cleomenes and his troops crept into the city and removed the Achaean garrison (how did they do that?).  Before marching off to Tegea?  Is that relevant to Mantinea?  This whole thing is a tad confusing.
 * Unfortunately many of the smaller details of the campaign are scimmed over and we do not have sufficient evidence as to what happened. This is the case witht he capture of Mantinea. I add that the city of Tegea is close by. Kyriakos (talk) 23:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * why does coughing up blood force a return to Sparta?
 * I've clarified this. Kyriakos (talk) 23:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * general prose comment. Sentences like this: Antigonus proceeded to capture Mantinea...  Why not Antigonus captured Mantinea... ? This is a question throughout.  Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Prose looks OK. Greek Phalanx image: if it's not a photograph, it would be nice to know that it's a ?painting, or a graphic representation, or something. Looks like a still from a TV animation. I suppose we don't know who did it ... Tony   (talk)  03:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.