Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Clinton Engineer Works/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 00:15, 30 September 2015.

Clinton Engineer Works

 * Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:02, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

This article is about the Clinton Engineer Works, the Manhattan Project's largest facility. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:02, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Support, noting that I've reviewed this previously (at ACR I think). One minor point is that I think the capitalisation is off slightly on the bibliography; I think the MOS would have "Oak Ridge National Laboratory: the first fifty years" as " Oak Ridge National Laboratory: The First Fifty Years". Hchc2009 (talk) 14:44, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixed that. Thanks for your review! Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:54, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Support and Comment: though I performed a copy edit, I do think the article cries out for further characterization of what life was like to live there both during and after the war. What were the community's secrecy standards? How compartmentalized were jobs and responsibilities? What percentage of workers were professional scientists vs. "worker bees", as well as women and minorities? And the big question: if they didn't know specifically the project they were working on before the atomic blast at Hiroshima, what did they believe they were involved in? And what was their reaction to that? Pride? Concern over radiation effects (hushed up after Hiroshima)? Much is unanswered.

I notice that the adjunct Oak Ridge, Tennessee article gives more space to the racial segregation issue, also to the notion that workers were in the dark before Hiroshima. We also get hints of a more democratic and/or autonomous community spirit arriving after the war. But here it gets short shrift: was there a resident-driven movement to break from socialism and government controls and heavy-handedness? How did these changes come about? Also, what kind of salaries and budgets did these households have, were they "captive spenders" in the government-constructed businesses, beholden to local health authorities, and why was life in general there fulfilling and/or wanting? The education question seems open, more unanswered than answered particularly given that at least some working there were highly-educated scientific types. Above all, I read this article mouth agape at the relatively-crude early nuclear technology, constantly wondering about long-term public health and nuclear contamination issues, wondering if there are statistical references (even anecdotes) which could be cited. The article seems a bit long-winded, particularly on the construction details, in light of these various social omissions&mdash;won't other readers have the same questions I do?

My copy edit didn't find big problems, but a couple of sentences seem cumbersome, e.g.: "In September 1942, Compton asked a physicist, Martin D. Whitaker, to form the nucleus of an operating staff for X-10." I'd avoid words like "nucleus" (and "core") to describe such groups, since they seem confusing in light of the overall scientific context.

I DO like the article, and if I sound over-critical it is in fact because I'm thoroughly intrigued. Just wish it were sprinkled with a little more humanity, for lack of a better word: a sense that people lived, worked, and grew up in a very odd and rarefied environment. From the sources, can we generate a little bit more of that? Thanks for all the good work &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 15:45, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your review. I'll see what I can do. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:31, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) I'll see if I can dig up some statistics on the make up of the workplace. I can tell you that the majority were construction workers.
 * 2) The amount of information that workers had varied greatly, but most knew very little. The WACs at Los Alamos even had a song about it:
 * We're on a secret mission / And secret work we do / We're not to tell folks what we know / But I don't know, do you?
 * All I can do is give a description of the security, and provide anecdotes. There are some good ones in the article already; I particularly like the girl scout one.
 * 1) The major safety issues were not radioactivity, but the handling of toxic chemicals and high voltages. The Project actually compiled a good safety record, far in excess of that of private firms of the day. Radioactive hazards were generally taken lightly. Partly this was due to ignorance, but there was also a different concept of risk with a war on. The really scary stuff did not happen until after the war, but this is beyond the scope of the article. The concept of what was acceptable evolved. In the beginning, for example, the scientists assumed that no one would mind if a nuclear power station emitted less radioactivity that an equivalent coal-fired station. This proved to be not the case.
 * 2) I'm looking for another word beyond "nucleus" and "core". As a military type, "cadre" comes to mind, but I'm not sure how widely understood that is. For the record, "hutment" is used in many articles; the most significant is shanty town.
 * 3) The adjunct article does devote more space to the racial segregation issue, with some interesting stuff (mostly unsourced). I thought it would be enough to note that the township was segregated, as was customary in this period. I can add some more material.
 * 4) Finally, as to self-government, if the residents had had their way, Oak Ridge would still be a gated community run at the Federal government's expense. The motivation for forcing self government on Oak ridge, Hanford and Los Alamos was ideological, as it was seen as socialist, which was anathema to many American politicians, and became increasingly so as the Cold War set in. There was also a financial dimension, reducing costs, but this was also ideological in motivation, as vast sums were spent by the AEC through the 1950s.


 * I have tried to address your concerns with new sections on "Personnel" and "The war ends", and have expanded the "post-war" section. Bear in mind that this article is about the installation during World War II, and is not a history of the city. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:10, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
 * VERY happy with that! Your additions deftly reinforce a sense of community and give depth to the social/community contract. That memo, by the way, is fascinating! Good work and many thanks Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 12:39, 25 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I've added a small section on electric power. I had to remove the bit about 14% of the US's electric power. This comes from Nichol's autobiography (ghost-written), which embarrassed me on the Manhattan Project article. The claim has been refuted by recent scholarship. See and . Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Civil_Action_No._429.jpg: source link is dead
 * Added a new link. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
 * File:Lie_detector_test.jpg: source does not identify specific author. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:01, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Ed Westcott Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the image review! Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. I've looked at the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class. (Note to self: I'm going to credit myself with a review for Milhist on this one, since there were a lot of additions.) These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 00:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * If you like a co-nominator credit on an article, let me know. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Coordinator query: Has there been a source review for formatting and reliability? If not, please request at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. -- Laser brain  (talk)  11:13, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Or I'll do it. -- Laser brain  (talk)  11:59, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Source check All sources appear reliable. I note the following with respect to formatting:
 * You are not consistent on D.C. vs. DC in the bibliography.
 * I didn't mind you not giving a state name for Knoxville or Urbana as the state name followed in the name of the publisher (U of X Press). However, even though the reader has just spent an article hearing about it, I think you should put a state name with Oak Ridge.
 * Thats it.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:09, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your review. I have implemented the suggested changes. I'm never sure about D.C. vs DC. We use the latter in Australian English. The former used to be mandated in U.S. (US?) English, but that is now dying, and Americans are switching over. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:53, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

-- Laser brain  (talk)  00:15, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.