Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cloud (video game)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 01:20, 16 April 2011.

Cloud (video game)

 * Nominator(s):  Pres N  07:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Having gotten Flower (video game) and Flow (video game) through FAC, I now take one more step backwards through the history of Thatgamecompany with the first successful game that Jenova Chen ever made. Cloud is even more indie and obscure that Flow- a short, free student game that never saw a commercial release of any kind; it still managed to get downloaded by over 600,000 people in its first 9 months. As an artsy student game it got little attention from the mainstream review press, but I think I've managed to pull everything together into a sweet little article. It's been copyedited by user:JimmyBlackwing, the images have alt text, the urls have been archived, and it's ready to be torn apart! Thanks for reviewing! -- Pres N  07:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Source review Source are of good quality overall, spotchecks found no concerning close paraphrasing. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:06, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Need page numbers for multi-page PDFs
 * Page number(s) for the Game Informer article?
 * Added (more specific) page numbers- what's the minimum requirement on that? One's a 9 page pdf, and the other is a 13 page with huge fonts. Can't find scans of the GI article again, and the ones I found originally must not have had them, so I don't have the page numbers. -- Pres N  17:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Taking a read.
 * "Lead designed by Jenova Chen" - "Lead designed" is an odd verb phrase.
 * Reworked. -- Pres N  06:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "clouds above it" Them?
 * Fixed. -- Pres N  06:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "experimental games.[6][3]" Reorder refs?
 * Fixed. -- Pres N  06:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "daydream while waiting for the doctors." Whilst?
 * Seriously? Whilst is a bit poncy. Our own article says that it's "a form considered archaic outside the United Kingdom" - and I wrote this in US English.
 * It's only us who use "whilst"? I didn't realise that... J Milburn (talk) 10:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "Best Student Philosophy award" What is this award?
 * "Artistic achievement", apparently. Dunno why they don't just call it that. -- Pres N  06:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You don't really expand on the music at any point.
 * Didn't have any refs that touched on it more than the quotes in the reception section. Trust me- I've written more on Wikipedia about game music than anyone else; if it was there I would have squeezed it in. -- Pres N  06:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Was this submitted to the university? Were they undergrads at the time? That aspect isn't fully clear.
 * Tried to clear that up- master's program, and it wasn't for any specific class; the university just gave them money to develop it. -- Pres N  06:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Hope this helps. J Milburn (talk) 22:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Replied inline. -- Pres N  06:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Comments:


 * Resolved comments moved to the talk page. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:46, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Weak support. Looks good. No issues with prose and nothing substantive with references. I'm going to say "weak", because it is short and I expect FAs on a video game to be a bit longer in principle. I know there is no more material available, and lengthening the article wouldn't increase the quality. This is really just a preference, from FAC criteria stand-point; support. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 18:53, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments: I made some copy edits here and there. Here are the remaining issues that stood out to me.
 * I split the first lead paragraph before reading the comments on this page. Feel free to revert, but I think you could add one more sentence about the development in there.
 * That's fine. -- Pres N  20:07, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The comment about clouds overpowering each other seemed to lack context. I assume it refers to when the different clouds are combined, but it is currently unclear to me.
 * Switched the order of sentences so that it has more context, and played with the sentence before. -- Pres N  20:07, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I think both the non-free images are too large and should be reduced. Their FUR are rather sparse too and should be expanded, especially the descriptions and purposes of use.
 * Expanded the FURs; shrinking the images will have to wait until later today. -- Pres N  20:07, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * What makes ref 2 from Game Tunnel a reliable source?
 * Game Tunnel is run and edited by a video game industry member, Russell Carroll (Reflexive Entertainment); GameSetWatch and Gamasutra consider both the site and its indie game awards to be notable enough to refer to and sometimes run a column by him. William Usher, the author of this specific piece, is currently an assistant editor at Cinema Blend. -- Pres N  20:07, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Other than that the article looks pretty good. Short, but good. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC))
 * The changes look good. Though I think the image descriptions should be expanded further because the reader may click on the image for more information. The description should be at least as descriptive as a caption; more so really because we're not as restricted on space like in an article. For example, I would write out the text on the back of the box in the file description.
 * Quick follow up question, is Cinema Blend reliable? Other than that, the article looks good. Keep up the good work. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:53, 29 March 2011 (UTC))
 * Shrank the images down to 400px on the longest side and expanded the descriptions some more. Cinema Blend, per that article, has been cited by The Times and the New York Times, and is syndicated in a few websites/newspapers. -- Pres N  01:22, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Everything is looking good to me. The article is well-written, well-sourced, short but comprehensive, and makes good use of the media. My only question left is why does the lead call Cloud a puzzle game, but the infobox calls it an action game? (Guyinblack25 talk 15:27, 30 March 2011 (UTC))
 * Changed; it kind of defies genres, but puzzle is closer than action. Or should I go with Zen? -- Pres N  16:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Support: All my concerns have been addressed. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:12, 30 March 2011 (UTC))

Support. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:54, 7 April 2011 (UTC) Leaning support with a few more comments and the caveat that I haven't a clue whether this is comprehensive or not, or what the standards are for video games. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:06, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * "The game was intended to spark emotions in the player that video games usually ignored" - the video game ignored emotions? I didn't know video games were sentient
 * I'll never understand all the hate for a little personification. Changed to video games industry. -- Pres N  19:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "Cloud won the Best Student Philosophy award for artistic achievement at the Slamdance Guerrilla Games Competition, a Student Showcase award at the Independent Games Festival." - grammar
 * Fixed. -- Pres N  19:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Given the length of the article, a 3-paragraph lead is probably excessive
 * Was changed from 2 to 3 by a reviewer above. They are at least short paragraphs. -- Pres N  19:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Mention the platform somewhere in article text, or at least say that it's computer-based?
 * Done. -- Pres N  19:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "It began development in January 2005" - phrasing is a bit off
 * Fixed. -- Pres N  19:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "The game won the $20,000 2005 Game Innovation Grant" - is there a way to avoid having those numbers side-by-side here?
 * Fixed. -- Pres N  19:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "the first game in the "Zen" genre" - is this a real defined genre, or something they made up to try to sell the game?
 * Made up, which I think is clear since they said it was the "first" game in the genre. -- Pres N  19:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "The game immediately received a great deal of attention when it was released; site traffic overran their server" - phrasing. Whose server? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:06, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed


 * Replied inline. -- Pres N  19:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Taking a second read. I'd definitely like to support this- sorry if it feels like I'm running you around. I've made a few fixes myself- let me know if you're not happy with them.
 * "the boy's avatar" This seems an odd phrase. Surely, the boy is the avatar; you link to player character? Or are you meaning it metaphorically that you take control of the projection of the boy into another world- the world of his daydreaming?
 * The second one. Tried to clarify a bit. -- Pres N  18:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd lose the word "avatar" altogether; there must be a better way of saying that. J Milburn (talk) 10:04, 9 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "A large number of white clouds more easily overpowers" What do you mean by this? I'm assuming something like the black clouds are "used up", leaving white clouds, but I don't know?
 * Tried to clarify as well. -- Pres N  18:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The article is short, but I think that that is probably appropriate for the subject matter. There doesn't seem to be any glaring ommissions, though I do feel I would like to know a little more about the music. J Milburn (talk) 10:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, me too, but everyone always asks him about Flower in interviews instead. Thanks for the review! -- Pres N  18:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Weak support per H3llkn0wz. J Milburn (talk) 10:04, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Image review - File:Cloudbox.jpg and File:Cloud_screenshot.jpg - seems obvious, but should explicitly say who holds copyright on these images. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:21, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Pres N  05:02, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.