Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Common Starling/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by 16:59, 2 April 2013 (UTC).

Common Starling

 * Nominator(s): Jimfbleak, Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because Jim and I have been working on it since the beginning of the year and we think we have polished it up nicely to FA standard. We await your views, or as Jim succinctly put it, "... we'll throw it to the wolves". Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Comments Good. Some observations before support:


 * Common Starling (species), starling (family). Yes Brits may use a capitalised Starling to denote the species but this is Wikipedia and we acknowledge more than one species! I've fixed a few instances of this, but you need to check the whole thing carefully, for example at the bottom of voice I found this "When a flock of Starlings is flying together,"
 * The capitalisation of bird names is difficult in articles like this. Where "Starling" is used it is usually to avoid repeating "Common Starling" excessively but it is still referring to the species rather than starlings in general. Do I understand that you think it should then be "starling"? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I think that if you are referring to the species you should use the full species name. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  08:06, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have now changed to "Common Starling" all the instances of "Starling" referring particularly to the species. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Great Sabine's Sunbird  talk  06:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The summer breeding map colours are very hard to distinguish.
 * I have changed one of the colours. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * excellent they stand out better now. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  08:08, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The feeding technique where the starling shoves its bill into the ground and opens it is called prying in taxonomy and probing in feeding.
 * Not sure that they are mutually exclusive, but "probing" for both now for consistency  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  07:03, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The bit about the lining of the nest with herbs is way more interesting than the rather perfunctory treatment it gets here, check the abstract. Olfaction in birds is a pretty big deal.
 * I agree, I've expanded and rationalised the text, and added a link to the full text of the Brouwer ref  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  07:27, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Gleaning - I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.
 * removed the word, not essential  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  07:03, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Duplication - you repeat the information about the Azores birds raiding terns, and the conservation impact/
 * Duplication removed  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  07:03, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


 * no mention of this species consuming parasites off large mammals, or the fact that the prying behaviour I mentioned above is subject to learning and that youngsters are initially not good at it. I can add these things from HBW if needed.
 * I've added the mammal parasites.  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  09:02, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think either of us has HBW If you can give a ref for the learned prying, that would be great. I can only partially source the item below, so again the HBW ref would enable us to make a better job of it  Jimfbleak  -  talk to me?  09:29, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I will add it this weekend. I don't have time during the week much anymore. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  06:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Done so, let me know if more is needed. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:59, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It looks good to me. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:01, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, just the right amount of info, and I even found a link for protractor  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The taxonomy sections mentions the closest relative being teh Spotless within Sturnus - these are probably the only two species in that genus. This also means that the morphological adaptation for prizing open the ground (the enlarged muscles are called the protractor muscles btw) are not unique to that genus, being shared by the closely related Acridotheres and Creatophora, and indeed several other genera, although it is most developed in this species, the Spotless and the White-cheeked Starling. Notably in these species it is paired with a narrower skull, and, according to HBW, the eye can be moved forward to peer down the length of the bill because of this.
 * More to follow after my copyedit run. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:54, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your helpful comments. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your quick responses. I'll have some more comments soon, but I have no doubt I'll be supporting promotion soon. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  08:13, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd seen the Indian Myna sunk into this genus and written as Sturnus tristis at times....Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:34, 17 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support ( Belated, I wandered off to look at Albatrosses). Sabine's Sunbird  talk  23:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for review and support  Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Cwmhiraeth. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Image review
 * Captions that are complete sentences should end in periods
 * File:Sturnus_vulgaris_map.png: what base map was used to create this image?
 * File:SturnusPorphyronotusSmit.jpg needs a US PD tag
 * File:MozartStarlingTune.PNG needs US PD tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:21, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've added the base map and PD-US tags, thanks for review <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:37, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Tentative support on prose and comprehensiveness. Comments will be reading through and jotting queries below. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:34, 17 March 2013 (UTC) all appears in order - prose and layout look good. Big topic so I can't see any glaring omissions and can't imagine we'd be able to include every article on the species.....Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:43, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 *  The Old English "staer", later "stare" derive from an Indo-European root dating back to the second millennium BC, as does the Latin word. - couple of things here. (i) I find "are derived" (passive) more natural-sounding than "derive" (active) (ii) I thought the practice was to consider Old English as foreign in some ways and italicise the word - (?) (iii) when is "stare" - Middle English etc. do we have dates? (iv) any other discussion on what the indo-european root actually was?
 * I've done (i) and (ii), I'll see what I can find for (iii) and (iv) <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  16:04, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The text implies that stare was the form in the Middle English period, becoming scarce in the C17, but doesn't actually say that. The existence of an Indo-European root is implied by the fact that the Latin, OE (and several old Germanic cognates) aree obviously derived from a common ancestor, but Lockwood doesn't speculate on this. Unless I can find another source, this may be as good as it gets. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  16:34, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * On thinking about it I figured we might have everything anyway. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:35, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The songsters are more commonly male although females also sing on occasions. - see I would have said "The songsters are more commonly male although females also sing on occasion." - the last word a sort of collective noun/adverbial thing....
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  16:04, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Otherwise looks pretty on-target for FA status....Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:02, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for review and support <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  18:04, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Review by Snowmanradio

 * Should the article refer more specifically to Mycobacterium avium or avian tuberculosis rather than "tuberculosis"? I recall that avian Tb occasionally affects humans, mainly immuno-compromised humans; however, I think that by just using "tuberculosis" Wiki-linked to the Wiki article, which is mainly about human tuberculosis, is misleading. In the absence of a Wiki article specifically about M. avium, then I think that a piped link to the genus Mycobacterium would be more appropriate. Snowman (talk) 13:07, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Done, with a suitable journal article to back it up. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:41, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Is the new piped link backed up by the journal? I note that the new piped link goes to Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis, which is about a subspecies and the linked Wiki article does not mention birds. Snowman (talk) 13:56, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Added another ref which specifically names the starling as a victim of Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak  - </b> talk to me?  15:08, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that it is much better now. Avian Tb does not spread easily between otherwise healthy humans. Snowman (talk) 15:31, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Captive birds can accumulate excess iron in the liver, a condition which can be prevented by adding black tea-leaves to the food": I am not sure what emphasis to put on this. Does this imply that haemosiderosis is a common problem in captive starlings? Snowman (talk) 15:35, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've tweaked to make it clear that this is a common problem with starlings (and apparently toucans and birds of paradise too). Low-iron diets have only limited success. The sources are a bit vague as to why it's not a problem with wild birds "In natural environments, iron accumulation varies with  seasonal  changes  and  environmental  stress  levels  and  is  influenced  by  other  dietary  constituents." <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak  - </b> talk to me?  15:52, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I see. Snowman (talk) 17:07, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for comments and for tidying the fungus <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  17:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Are the two images of nests on man-made things typical? Snowman (talk) 18:12, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Article probably needs an image of a recently fledged brown-looking juvenile. I am aware that there is one image of older juveniles with adults. Snowman (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The man-made structures are probably over-represented among the images but nests in holes are not so easy to photograph. I have changed one image in the article and added another which I hope covers both the points you raise. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:46, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The image of the two chicks in the gap in a wall is pleasing. I have removed the other new image of a juvenile beginning to moult and showing some adult plumage and replaced it with an excellent Featured Picture showing a bird of a similar age. I think that the article needs an image of an younger all-brown juvenile. Young juveniles are noticeable in the spring (? summer) when they come into gardens to feed in a family flock. Snowman (talk) 12:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have found a place-holder image of an all-brown juvenile and shown it in the article. Snowman (talk)


 * Lets be more ambitious with image selection and placement, because it is a very common species and there are plenty of photographs on Commons and Flickr. There might be a suitable photograph of a nest with eggs, but I would like like to risk disturbing a nest myself, or perhaps a suitable painting of the eggs. I have seen a few images of all-brown juveniles on Flickr, but not one that is quite right for the article yet. The infobox image is an FP and should be shown on the page somewhere; nevertheless, I wonder if an image with the bird facing into the page and on a less distracting perch would be more suitable in the infobox. The latter half of the article has plenty of space for a few photographs. Are there any opinions of showing videos of starlings doing things in the article? Any suggestions to improve the artwork? Snowman (talk) 10:02, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have changed some images and added more, and I see that you have also done so. Thank you. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:45, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There are several new images showing a range of plumages and behaviour, and there are many images on Commons. The artwork may get worked over again. Snowman (talk) 10:16, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Why are there three external links to websites showing pictures and videos of starlings? Snowman (talk) 12:26, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not needed, removed now <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  13:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Common Starlings follow an overall power-law dispersal kernel with an exponent around 1.5 and a 'good-stay, bad-disperse' rule of mobility sensitive to habitat quality.[76]"; jargon. Snowman (talk) 22:44, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Removed. I didn't understand it either. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:19, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If is is important, then perhaps someone else will be able to interpret it. Snowman (talk) 10:16, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "The latter species breaks off most of each wing when it finds a host"; Does this mean that the flies wings break off or the fly breaks starlings wing feathers? Snowman (talk) 22:49, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Clarified. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:19, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The article says that starlings eat garbage. It probably means discarded food. Snowman (talk) 23:01, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:19, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Provisional impression (1): I may have a conflict of interest, because I have done a little editing to the article and attempted to review it; nevertheless, I have aimed to be objective. I have not done a systematic search for MoS issues. I have not done systematic spot checking of sources, because I am not suspicious of verification problems. The images illustrate a variety of the bird's plumages and activities quite well currently, but I think that it is likely that the artwork will improve after the article has attained FA status. I hope that more reviewers will will look at the article, because there might be MoS or copy-editing issues remaining. I am not suspicious of factual errors, so in-the-round I think that the article has reached FA status, or will do soon after a few more reviewers give support. Snowman (talk) 10:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I was surprised and interested to learn a little about the Common Starling in aviculture and keeping it as a pet. Is there anything else on starlings in captivity, that would be relevant to add to the article? Would a pet starling try to stab its keeper's eyes with its pointed beak? Are there parts of the world where keeping starlings is popular? Is it illegal take one from the wild in some parts of the world?  Snowman (talk) 10:35, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that it's quite uncommon except for scientific research where its abundance and ease of keeping make it a good subject, there isn't a lot of information otherwise. In its introduced range it's legal to kill a starling, let alone capture it. It the EU, I believe that it's legal to capture starlings, don't know about Asia, but I shouldn't think it's protected anywhere. I don't know if there are any dangers, but I've never heard of starlings being particularly hazardous to handle (I suspect that you wouldn't hold one inches from your face though. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  15:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of a child holding a Common Starling close to its face and the starling stabbing the child's eyes with its beak. I have a footnote in a 1971 reprint of King Solomon's Ring that says that it is illegal to buy and sell a starling (and a list of other native birds) in Great Britain. Snowman (talk) 19:25, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Legislation has changed since 1971. Buying and selling birds without a licence isn't the same as keeping them, and as I said, most are in labs. You can't legislate for human stupidity, letting a child hold a starling near their face (or a bird of prey, or putting their fingers in a parrot cage) isn't something that can be sourced <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:40, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it worth mentioning its CITES status? Snowman (talk) 11:35, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * When there is competition for nest holes, do Starlings fight? If so, how do they fight? It is not immediately obvious to me how a Common Starling could fight off a rosella (medium sized parrot) for possession of a nest hole.  Is there anything on this that is relevant to add to the article? Snowman (talk) 10:35, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Starlings are gregarious even in the breeding season, and there's little to suggest fighting (as opposed to the usual squabbling) even for nest sites. Competition for nest holes doesn't necessarily involve fighting, it's often a matter of "finders keepers". Having said that, the source suggest that starling are usually successful (69%) in direct confrontation with the smaller Eastern Rosella, but not Crimson Rosella. The larger, more aggressive, Common Mynas are more of a problem to medium-sized parrots. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  16:18, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Is "usual squabbling" a ritualised fight with rules evolved to avoid a serious fight? What happens if there is a shortage of tree holes for nests? Snowman (talk) 19:48, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's even that, it's just jockeying for position in the large groups typical of this species. I've made it clearer now that starling will use almost any holes, but if their is a shortage, as with any other hole-species, some (usually the younger birds) don't breed at that time. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:40, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Austrian ethologist Konrad Lorenz described them as "the poor man's friend"; This is a quote, so would it be reasonable to also provide an in-line ref for the work in which Lorenz said this in addition to the existing in-line ref. I am not sure what FA criteria or MoS says about this, but I think that it would help verifiability a little to more easily access what Lorenz wrote and what the context was. Snowman (talk) 11:20, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The book doesn't reference the quote, and I can't find the original source. Another book says "poor man's dog", but doesn't claim to be quoting Lorentz. It's not an MoS or FAC requirement to give primary sources, and secondary sources are preferred where there is a choice. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  15:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It is from King Solomon's Ring and it is on page 59 in my 1971 reprint published by Methuen & Co Ltd. Lorentz says; "An extraordinarily understanding friend used to describe him [starling] as "the poor man's dog"." There is a picture of what looks like a Common Starling at the foot of the page. It seems likely to me that your secondary source has got something wrong because Lorentz is actually quoting someone else as saying it without saying who said it. I think that the article needs a correction. The point is that Lorentz says that the hand-raised starling appreciates personal contact and "friendship" and that one can not be bought ready made. He gives an account of raising a starling chick and a diet for an adult starling. Snowman (talk) 19:25, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've tweaked to remove the impression that Lorentz was necessarily the first to say this and added your source. I don't want to get too involved in the keeping of starlings since it's a minor part of the topic <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:40, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have amended it to give more the essence of what Lorentz was explaining. Snowman (talk) 11:20, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "... how adept they are at picking up phrases and expressions, often mixing them up or using them on inappropriate occasions. "; how would a staling know when it is inappropriate to sing a sound? Lorentz goes into this on page 84 of King Solomon's Ring. He says that the starling mimics sounds when singing and that the sounds have no meaning. Hence, I think that Lorentz has a more logical explanation. Snowman (talk) 19:40, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've tweaked to make it clearer that the sounds are meaningless to starlings, but that they may be produced at times that seem inappropriate to humans <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:40, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have changed the emphasis slightly according to what I have read in Lorentz book. Snowman (talk) 11:20, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Omission: nestling's faecal sacs. Lorentz describes this saying that chicks defecate in the side of the nest facing the light and that the nest inside is kept clean. Snowman (talk) 11:25, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This is such standard behaviour for passerines it's actually quite difficult to find an RS source for a particular species, done now.<b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  13:06, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The hygiene in the nest contrasts well with the mess of droppings on the ground. Snowman (talk) 19:50, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Is there a reason why the eggs are blue. Most birds eggs that are laid in tree holes are white. Snowman (talk) 11:25, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's true for passerines, even tits and nuthatches have substantial coloured blotches and spots on the white background. Added a journal that says the blue colour is perceived well in poor light <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  13:06, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of parrots' eggs, because parrots also nest in tree holes. I think that it is interesting about the visibility of the blue colour. Snowman (talk) 19:50, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Support. I think that the comprehensiveness. readability, and artwork of the article is up to FA status. I have not checked conformity to MOS systematically. I have not spot checked sources, because I am not suspicious of factual errors. I am not very good at copy-editing English grammar. Perhaps, people who know more about starlings than me will do a better review. Snowman (talk) 20:15, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your review and support. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Unpaired males begin to build nests in order to attract single females, ..." and the rest of the nesting section follows. I think I know what the section is supposed to mean, but much of this is ambiguous and vague. It could be interpreted that the male digs out the hole in the tree like a woodpecker. It is not clear that the straw and nest material is placed on the floor of a pre-existing nest cavity, or at least that is what I presume happens. Snowman (talk) 08:34, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Made it clear that existing cavities are used <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  12:53, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Pairs may be part of a larger colony"; larger than what? Snowman (talk) 08:38, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * rm "larger" <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  12:53, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The feathers are described as "shiny" in the article. The page on Starlings says that many species have iridescent plumage. Perhaps, "Shiny" is not quite the right word, or is it? Snowman (talk) 13:59, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * swings and roundabouts really, but changed to iridescent <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  20:20, 28 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "The eggs are 26.5–34.5 x 20.0–22.5 mm (1.04–1.36 x 0.79–0.89 mm).[3]" I know what this is meant to mean, but it seems unscientific or odd describing a 3D structure with 2 dimensions. Are there any conventions about writing egg sizes? Snowman (talk) 17:19, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a good thing you copied those dimensions because it enabled me to notice and correct the error! To answer your question, with a globe you only need to give one dimension and with a cylinder, two will suffice. A bird's egg is equivalent to a cylinder. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Well spotted. With a circle it would need to be clear that the dimension is the radius or the diameter. For a right circular cylinder the radius (or diameter) and length could be stated, with clarity about which dimension is the radius (or diameter) and which is the length. Would it be better to say something like "an egg 2 cm long and 1 cm in maximum diameter"? Snowman (talk) 18:36, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Its gift for mimicry has been noted in literature ranging from the Mabinogion to the works of William Shakespeare." I do not know what is included in this range. Pliney the Elder is prior to this range chronologically. Snowman (talk) 19:21, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Rephrased. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comments -- I suppose it was bound to catch my eye, but the Australia subsection begins "The Common Starling was originally introduced into Australia to consume insect pests which the birds were known to eat." Using "the birds" this way suggests you mean the starlings, but that'd mean starlings were introduced to Australia to consume insect pests that starlings eat, which sounds curious. Do you mean simply "birds", i.e. other species, birds in general? BTW, I'd say "originally" is redundant unless at some stage they were all eradicated and had to be reintroduced... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:41, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is a bit convoluted, now "The Common Starling was introduced into Australia to consume insect pests of farm crops", also removed repetition of "important" in next sentence. Thanks for comment <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well there you go, without mention of the crops that meaning didn't even occur to me (though that may say as much about my comprehension tonight as your expression)... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 08:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.