Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Crocodilia/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:Ian Rose 10:02, 6 January 2014 (UTC).

Crocodilia

 * Nominator(s): LittleJerry, Chiswick Chap, Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:28, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

This article is about the 24 species of crocodiles, alligators, caimans and gharials that make up the order Crocodilia. We have been working on this article for some time and it recently had a rigorous GA review done by Quadell. We think it is ready for FAC and we look forward to your comments. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:28, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Comment from Hamiltonstone
Great nomination, and very interested to read this, as will my little son be, as we have just been checking out the crocs at the zoo....
 * Ecological role: this is an odd section, as it does not begin with any overall statement about the place of crocodilians in their home ecosystems, but dives into some very particular (and in the first case, unproven) information about individual spp. Surely a general statement can be supported regarding these being top predators in the aquatic / whatever ecosystems of which they are part?
 * I have renamed this section as "Ecology" and added some extra material. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Fabulous. Reminds me of that great rewrite you did on the culture section of The sea (though perhaps I shouldn't mention that!). I think this is much much better. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:12, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much! Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:37, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Accuracy / plagiarism / lost quote mark problems in the Evolution section.
 * WP: "The feature that distinguishes archosaurs from other diapsid reptiles is an extra pair of openings in the skull (antorbital fenestrae) in front of the eye sockets."
 * Source [footnote 70, UCMP]: "differentiated from the other diapsids by the presence of single openings in each side of the skull, in front of the eyes (antorbital fenestrae), among other characteristics" - ie. WP refers to only one defining difference, source says there are others; WP refers to diapsid reptiles, source refers to diapsids.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 16:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * WP: "Archosauria is defined as the group that includes the common ancestor of crocodiles and birds and all of its descendants"
 * Source [footnote 70, UCMP]: "Archosauria is defined as the group that includes the common ancestor of crocodiles and birds and all of its descendants".
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 16:40, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have rephrased this sentence which I thought could be quoted verbatim as a standard definition. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:27, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem lay not in choosing to quote it, but in not using quote marks to clearly indicate that. But your solution i think is preferable, ta. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:51, 8 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you explain the logic behind the referencing process, that means that all cites of Grigg and Gans (1993) are to one footnote with the full chapter range, while cites to the various chapters of Ross (ed) (1992) are by Harvard footnotes, even though the numbers of pages in those chapters are no greater than in the Grigg and Gans work?
 * We're citing one chapter in Grigg which is weblinked. LittleJerry (talk) 16:45, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll get to this. LittleJerry (talk) 18:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:39, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Great. I know that would have been a fiddly job. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:09, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Looking forwarding to seeing how this goes, and revisiting other sections at a future date...hamiltonstone (talk) 07:07, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Lead: "..."high walk" and a "low walk" and smaller species are even capable of galloping." Too many "ands". Suggest "..."high walk" and a "low walk", while smaller species are even capable of galloping."
 * Done.


 * Lead: "The largest number of attacks come from the Nile crocodile." In this case "the largest number" is singular (ie. a single number), so it should read "The largest number of attacks comes from the Nile crocodile."
 * Done.


 * Lead: "Humans are the largest threat..." Repetition of "largest" from previous sentence and anyway, "greatest" I think is a better word in this context.
 * Done.


 * Lead: "Crocodilians have appeared in human cultures around the world since at least Ancient Egypt." What, they turned up in art galleries? Watch out! I think what is meant is something like "Artistic and literary representation of crocodilians has occured in human cultures around the world since at least Ancient Egypt."
 * Done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Locomotion: footnote 24, Grigg and Ganns page 229 - this is not within the page range for that source. I think it should be 329.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 14:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Distribution and ecology: "Some prefer swamps, ponds, and the edges of lakes, where they can bask in the sun and there is plenty of plant life supporting a diverse fauna. Others prefer the lower stretches of rivers, mangrove swamps, and estuaries, which also have a rich flora and plenty of food." This seems a bit odd. We are being told that swamps, ponds, lake edges, rivers, mangroves, and estuaries, all have lots of plants and food. That is, the ecosystem features (from a crocodilian perspective) are the same. Yet the sentence structure seeks to establish a contrast between two types of environments (ie. "some prefer...others prefer...") To use this some / others structure, we should expect the differences between the environments to be the focus, but we are told that they are the same. Are you sure this is how the source explains it?
 * Rephrased. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Distribution and ecology: "Dry land is also important as it provides opportunities for basking, nesting, and escaping from temperature extremes". This sentence appears to contradict earlier material under the thermoregulation heading. On the contrary, it appears that the water is used to escape temperature extremes, both hot and cold. What is going on here?
 * More explanation provided. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Reproduction and parenting: something is wrong with this sentence: "Male alligators try to attract females with loud bellows and vibrate along the length of their bodies". The word "vibrate" does not appear to be accurate or grammatical here (I can't quite get what was intended, I'm sorry, so I'm having trouble pinning down the problem). Is the meaning: "Male alligators try to attract females with loud bellows and vibrations along the length of their bodies"?
 * Yes, fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 15:29, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Phylogeny: Any chance of a wikilink or something for "maximum likelihood cladogram" to assist those readers (ie. almost all) who will have no idea what this is or why it is important?
 * Wikilink added. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:37, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I did quite a lot of source checks on Grigg and Gans. They were all good, except for one inadequate paraphrase, which I fixed.
 * Thanks.


 * References: What's going on with the Erickson et al reference, which appears to occur twice at footnotes 5 and 93, but differently linked etc. Should this be one repeated cite?
 * Merged. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * References: Consistency in references - use of ampersand: "Alcala & Dy-Liacco" but "Grigg and Gans".
 * Replaced all ' & ' with ' and '. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:47, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:31, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Support. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:07, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Support. I performed the GA review, which was extremely thorough. I did not just apply the GA criteria, but also gave suggestions for improving the article along every facet I could think of. As I said then, "I can't find any more needed improvements. In every section, I asked myself, is anything missing? Is there more on this aspect that should be discussed? And every time, the content seems full and complete." By the time the GA review was finished, it was in excellent shape, and it has only improved since then. I believe this fulfills all our FA criteria and should be featured. – Quadell (talk) 13:57, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Support Query Nice read. I've made a few tweaks, hope you like them, if not it's a wiki.....
 * "a subordinate will summit" could that be "a subordinate will submit"
 * Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:27, 7 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Re "Intake of water and salts takes place through the skin, across the lining of the mouth, when water is drunk, incidentally while feeding, and when present in foods. Salts and water are lost from the body in the urine and faeces, during respiration, through the skin, and via salt excreting glands on the tongue, though these are only present in crocodiles and gharials.[43][44] Gaping causes water loss by evaporation, but the skin is a largely effective barrier to both water and ions" If the skin is an effective barrier to water how can it also be where water intake takes place. Also would you mind checking the bit about salt being lost in respiration?
 * I will check on this when I have the book available again. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:27, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, much appreciated.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  12:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The source also uses "water and salts" as the subject in the source but, like you, I doubt whether salts are lost during respiration so I have rephrased the passage. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:47, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, works for me.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  23:17, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

 Ϣere Spiel Chequers  22:51, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Re "The ranges of the American and Chinese alligator extend into regions that sometimes experience periods of frost in winter." There's also a reference to the crocodilians as being tropical except for Florida and the Yangtse. But according to the map the furthest part of their range from the equator is southern Uruguay where the temperature can drop to minus 4 centigrade. Is that aspect of the map correct, or is it just that Uruguay like the Nile delta has very mild winters.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  12:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't know. The map was derived from a reliable source and the Wikipedia article on Uruguay states "Uruguay has a largely uniform temperature throughout the year, with summers being tempered by winds off the Atlantic; severe cold in winter is unknown." Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:47, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I was looking at Climate of Uruguay which talks about minus 4, but obviously we can't go beyond the sources. Thanks for investigating it.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  23:17, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Cas Liber

 *  Comments  - looks good on first scan. Will take a closer look and jot queries below: Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Would have thought Deinosuchus warranted a mention somewhere - maybe in the dimensions, showing that there were larger extinct forms? AFAIK it was the largest crocodilian found....?
 * Have mentioned it and its size.


 * Given the diversity in the mesozoic and early cenozoic, think that some of those families warrant a mention somewhere (but appreciate the article is quite large as is!)
 * Noted.
 * Have added Borealosuchus, Pristichampsidae in Evolution section. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:14, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Crocodylia in taxobox and on cladogram - reason for leaving it with a 'y' in these places?
 * The taxobox spelling cannot be changed as the mechanism only accepts the -y- form. Have set the cladograms to be -i- like the rest of the article, but that in a way emphasises the difference with the taxobox. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Aah well, maybe that can be changed at template level. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right - only had to tweak two templates and do one move, wasn't really hard. Let's hope nobody puts it back... Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I actually read through this at the gym on my smartphone - nothing is jumping out at me prose-wise, and it now looks comprehensive. Have not checked sources. I think I am leaning support pending other issues found by other reviewers. Will have another look as it is a big article. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:21, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Axl

 * From the lead section, paragraph 2: "Like birds, they have a four-chambered heart." Mammals and fish also have four-chambered hearts, so this isn't a distinguishing feature. Of course the archosaur heart evolved independently, which is why birds are mentioned here. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:44, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  20:57, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * From the lead section, paragraph 4: "Crocodilians appear in folklore and literature from around the world since the time of Herodotus and Pliny the Elder." It is worth stating when exactly the time of those people was. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:47, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Added their dates. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:05, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  20:57, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * From "Morphology and physiology", paragraph 1: "in particular, the ribs allow the animal to collapse its thorax when diving." This statement implies that this is an active decision by the animal. Is this the case, perhaps to reduce buoyancy, or does water pressure passively compress the thorax? Do the animals dive deep enough for water pressure to cause a significant change in the volume of the lungs? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:30, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I really wanted to clarify exactly what the source states. The current and/or previous statement may well be accurate, but there is potentially more information to be added. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  21:00, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Read more. LittleJerry (talk) 23:47, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you're referring to. Perhaps the "Respiration" subsection? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  23:59, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. LittleJerry (talk) 01:46, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The "Respiration" subsection doesn't really answer my questions. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  15:52, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no information on that. LittleJerry (talk) 16:48, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This reference states "Submerged lung volumes of C. porosus are approximately half the maximum lung volume reported for reptiles over the same body mass range. These low volumes are probably not due to intrinsic differences between lung morphology of C. porosus and other reptiles but to buoyancy restrictions. Freely diving C. porosus are usually negatively buoyant, with an average specific gravity of 1.028. To maintain this specific gravity, lung volume must be reduced considerably prior to submergence." I shall add some text to the article. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  18:40, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I have added a sentence with the reference. Do you think that this source is reliable? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  20:03, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. Where does it come from? LittleJerry (talk) 20:31, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * From an internet search. This is the website's home page. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  21:03, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * How would you feel about adding this statement: "The maximum diving depth is unknown, but crocodiles can dive to at least 20 metres." Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:47, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay. LittleJerry (talk) 22:22, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have added the statement and reference. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  14:09, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


 * From "Morphology and physiology", paragraph 2: "This allows them to stalk their prey with most of their body underwater." A minor issue: "their body" implies that the crocodilians collectively have only one body. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  14:39, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I wasn't sure if that solution was the best one, which is why I didn't edit it myself. However if you think that is the best solution, that's fine with me. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  21:02, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * From "Locomotion", paragraph 1: "when pursued or when chasing prey they can move rapidly, and can lunge out of the water in a manner reminiscent of dolphins." I'm not sure that "a manner reminiscent of dolphins" is helpful. I suspect that readers are more likely to be familiar with crocodilians lunging out of water rather than dolphins doing so. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  14:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  21:04, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * From "Morphology and physiology", subsection "Circulation", paragraph 1: "Like birds and mammals, crocodilians have heart valves that flip open when pressured by surges of blood and shut closely when the pressure subsides." The statement doesn't describe the importance of the valves. How about this: "Like birds and mammals, crocodilians have heart valves that direct blood flow in a single direction through the heart chambers." Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:53, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 13:55, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  19:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * From "Morphology and physiology", subsection "Respiration", paragraph 2: "When inhaling, the intercostal muscles expand the ribs.... When exhaling, the intercostal muscles push the ribs inward." I presume that the external intercostal muscles undertake the former and the internal intercostal muscles the latter? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:14, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 13:55, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay. Do the references support the statement? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  19:55, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, changed. It doesn't name them that. Its says "parts of the intercoastal muscles". LittleJerry (talk) 21:40, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This source and this source confirm the function of the internal and external intercostal muscles. The former source is already being used for the article. I have adjusted the text and added the reference. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:07, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * From "Morphology and physiology", subsection "Thermoregulation", paragraph 1: "Solar radiation is the main means of warming for any crocodilian." How about "The sun's heat" rather than "Solar radiation"? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  14:11, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  15:40, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


 * From "Morphology and physiology", subsection "Osmoregulation", paragraph 1: "Intake of water and salts takes place through the skin.... The skin is a largely effective barrier to both water and ions." The two statements are contradictory. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  13:25, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Added ref from Mazzotti and Dunson 1989; skin largely impermeable, so removed the 'through the skin'. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:14, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  22:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "Morphology and physiology", subsection "Osmoregulation", paragraph 2 refers to "the concentration of ions in the plasma". I suppose that this means "osmolality". Can we change it to "osmolality"? If necessary, you could include a short definition in parentheses alongside the first instance. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  13:31, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Mazzotti and Dunson 1989 use the term of the 'electrolyte composition' of the urine. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:14, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have changed the second instance to "osmolality". Axl  ¤  [Talk]  22:39, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * From "Morphology and physiology", subsection "Osmoregulation", paragraph 1: "The animals are well-hydrated, and the urine in the cloaca is "copious, clear and dilute, and excess nitrogen is...excreted as ammonium bicarbonate"." Why is a quote used rather than paraphrasing? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Replaced quotation with paraphrase. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:04, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  14:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * From "Distribution and ecology", paragraph 1: "several species can tolerate the brackish water of estuaries, mangrove swamps, and hypersaline lakes." Hypersaline lakes do not contain brackish water. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:04, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  15:47, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * From "Distribution and ecology", paragraph 3: "Desert crocodiles in Mauritania have adapted to their arid environment by staying in caves or burrows in a state of torpor during the driest periods." Is this aestivation? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  23:01, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, changed. LittleJerry (talk) 01:55, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Delegate notes

 * Image/source reviews? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I checked all 32 images. All are legitimately free, and all required information is provided. Images are used appropriately, and captions are good. – Quadell (talk) 13:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The bibliography is correctly formatted. I have not checked the reference formatting, and I'll leave that to someone else. – Quadell (talk) 13:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The quality and formatting of the references is of FA standard. Graham Colm (talk) 17:43, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * As noted above, I've done some source checking against Grigg and Gans that looks fine, but found other issues along the way. Cheers, hamiltonstone (talk) 11:57, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Graham Colm (talk) 17:43, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.