Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Curt Roberts/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 13:19, 3 September 2012.

Curt Roberts

 * Nominator(s): Secret account 05:43, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because... Roberts was trailblazer in his field whose name is relatively unknown today. First black player in Pittsburgh Pirates history, but only lasted a few seasons and went on to a obscurity. Hell most of his former teammates didn't learn of Roberts death until being approached by a journalist writing a major piece on him nearly 20 years later. I used or saw just about every source I have access to on the subject. There's a good number out there but it's simply not encyclopedic as it is rather trivial game detail. Thus the article is a bit on the smaller side. Thanks for Sarastro1 for the GA review and Giants2008 and The Rambling Man for the peer review feedback.

I saw the sources Giants2008 gave me and I used the two main ones he linked as a citation once, as the first book "Crossing the Line: Black Major Leaguers, 1947-1959" is riddled with errors and original research with no sources to back it up, including its section on Roberts. The second book is about Roberto Clemente discusses Roberts (a bit off-topic as well) from the Pittsburgh Courier perspective, which is a very interesting tidbit, but confusing to the reader unless I get a hold of the archives of the Courier which seems to be available only though the University of Pittsburgh library archives. So knowing that, I'll try to fix any concerns as quick as possible but note weekends are very hard for me. Thanks Secret account 05:43, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Weak Oppose The article lacks a picture (a requirement), seems under-referenced, and may be a bit short for a Featured Article. However, it seems well-written. Pokajanje &#124; Talk  22:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is no length requirement for featured articles--check out the bottom of this table. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:00, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * How is this "under-referenced"? And pictures are not a requirement, per WP:FA?. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 13:59, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Criterion 3: "Media. It has images and other media where appropriate, with succinct captions, and acceptable copyright status." Images are a requirement. Pokajanje &#124; Talk  20:05, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It does not at all. Perhaps read the sentence aloud. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 21:04, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That criterion is confusing. Does it read "It has images, and other media where appropriate..." or "It has images and other media, where appropriate..."? It could be taken either way, and I took it as the first. (In any case, the article lacks any media at all in its present state.) Pokajanje &#124; Talk  15:31, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Since the subject played during the 1950s, and died very young a free image is practically impossible to find for the subject, unless I use a very low quality newspaper photo. Most of the images I've seen of the subject comes from the Associated Press or Topps both of which are way too risky and invalid for fair use. If someone can find a free image of Roberts go right ahead, but unless I'm required to put a image (ping FAC delegate), I rather pass for now at least. Secret account 01:42, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Unless there's a viable image possibility presented, it's not required. Sometimes there just isn't an available photo under a usable license. (That being said, there may be opportunities to include images not of the article subject, at your discretion). Nikkimaria (talk) 04:00, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I did an image search myself. All baseball cards of him are 1954 or 1955 Topps, which are still copyright; had I found Bowman (which I was hoping to) or a Baseball Digest image, then those would have worked. Adding the Topps one in would be okay under non-free criteria, but it doesn't need to be done just to be done. Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 15:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Topps is particularly strict with their copyright. There was a OTRS complaint a few years back on using their cards even as fair use so I'm not going to bother uploading them. I do wonder however, if material from The Sporting News was ever renewed. They have some high quality images that can be used. Secret account 18:47, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * Don't switch from mdy to dmy within refs
 * Compare formatting of FNs 14 and 21. Look for similar inconsistencies. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:00, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Done? Secret account 23:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Oppose – Sorry, but I don't think the writing is strong enough to meet criterion 1a at the moment. Also, while I can't say that I find the oppose that convincing, I do think there's a point to be made that one or two key details are missing. Sorry to hear that the Crossing the Line book wasn't that helpful.
 * "After becoming the starting second baseman for the Pirates in his rookie year, Roberts playing time decreased...". Apostrophe needed at the end of Roberts.
 * Not sure why "Minors" is capitalized at the end of the first paragraph. I also think it could be made "minor leagues" to aid the understanding of non-baseball fans.
 * Early professional career: "the same high school future professional athletes Frank Robinson, Vada Pinson, Bill Russell and Curt Flood, went to all within a few years of each other." I'd recommend removing the last comma and moving "all" to immediately following Flood's name.
 * I know that Negro League statistics are lacking in general, but is there anything more that can be added? We're basically covering four years of his career in one sentence, which makes the coverage appear less than extensive.
 * Comma would be nice after the first use of Andy Cohen's name.
 * "and started to build a reputation as a excellent fielder". Second "a" should be "an" instead, as in "an excellent fielder".
 * Major League career: "pressurized the team to integrate their team roster". Second "team" is a redundancy and isn't needed to get the sentence. It can easily be dropped.
 * "Roberts finished the 1954 season as the primary starter in second base". "in" → "at".
 * "the" should be added in "prior to 1956 season."
 * One of the issues I have with the article as a whole is that it implies that Roberts was the victim of harsh racism, but doesn't go all the way to describe what he was going through. In the Clemente book, page 73 has a sentence that goes like this: "Christine Roberts, the player's wife, told Pittsburgh Post-Gazette writer Ed Bouchette that when she attended games at Forbes Field she heard constant shouts of 'Knock the nigger down!" and "Hit him in the head.'" This is quite disturbing to read, but it's informative in showing how racist some of the people in Pittsburgh were towards Roberts. Without some information like this showing the challenges that he faced, I can't say that this article is fully comprehensive considering that racism was the key issue any black player faced at that time.
 * I'll also add that the snippet above has the name of Roberts' wife, which the article lacks. If a key biographical detail can be added, by all means do so.
 * Later career: "Neither Jacobs nor McMahan lasted beyond the 1956 season in Majors." "the" is needed before "Majors".
 * Pittsburgh Courier needs italics here.
 * MVP should be spelled out a sentence earlier than it currently is.
 * "where he led the league in fielding percentage with 987.". Period should be moved to before the number.
 * "was" should be added to "but his playing ability diminished by the injury".
 * Post-baseball: "A major piece written by Pittsburgh Post-Gazette journalist Ed Bouchette discussed Roberts career and struggles". Apostrophe needed again at the end of Roberts' name.
 * Playing style and statistics: "Former teammate Nellie King called Roberts the best handler of "chopper" he ever seen." First, "had" should be before "ever seen". Second, to avoid a grammatical error it's okay to make the quote "chopper[s]", using the brackets to make it work better in the sentence while maintaining the intended meaning.
 * "King cited the main reason why Roberts had a short career in the Majors was because..." just doesn't work well at all. Perhaps try "According to King, the main reason why Roberts had a short career in the Majors is that the Pirates...".
 * Legacy: "the most notable whom was future Baseball Hall of Famer Roberto Clemente." "of" should go before "whom"; also, the Hall of Fame was linked earlier and doesn't need a repeat link.
 * No need to capitalize Black or Hispanic.
 * Another apostrophe needed after his name in "mentioned that Roberts legacy...".
 * "for the opening of Pirates Highway Legacy Square Negro League exhibit in PNC Park." "the" should go before Pirates. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 23:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I fixed all the grammar issues, some of which was careless writing on my part, other is due because of my dyslexia. With the extra information, let me find if I could get extra information. I'm back in my studies so I should have access to some information that otherwise would have been beyond a paywall. Give it a day or two, class got canceled because of Tropical Storm Issac on Monday, so I have the time to search for the information. Thanks Secret account 06:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.