Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics – Women's road race/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 21:07, 14 July 2009.

Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics – Women's road race

 * Nominator(s): Tone 13:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

This article was nominated two months ago but it didn't attract enough reviewers to generate a clear opinion whether to promote it or not. Since all the issues have been resolved during the previous nom, I am renominating it again. Thank you for your consideration. Tone 13:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Support with comments Looks great! Few things, but all trivial and all-but-one stylistic, so definite support:
 * Could the Guardian source on Moreno's drug test be in the intro as well? The intro also states the "first Olympian of the 2008 games to be caught" factoid, but the CBC Olympics cite used only says "Moreno is the first athlete to fail a drug test during the official Olympic doping control period." Maybe that means the same thing and I'm dumb, but the Guardian source seems to have firmer language.
 * Could the infobox, Arndt image, and Yonghe temple image be spaced a bit more? I'm usng IE, monitor set at 1280x960 (perfectly normal), and there's an large whitespace between the two "Course" paragraphs because the two images rub together (because the "Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics" infobox forces the Arndt image down). Could you move that infobox down, say to the "Race" section, which is imageless, to allow for a cleaner page?
 * Similar problem with the lead infobox, it spills into the "Qualifications" section so there's an even bigger whitespace after "Main article: Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics – Qualification: Road" waiting for the main infobox to end. Could you get that text to wrap around the box better?
 * And finally this is a more fundamental stylistic question, but is this the best article title? I realize it's the universal standard and is already used in other FAs like the men's race brother to this article, but isn't that dash really awkward? Wouldn't a far better title (and one at least somewhat more likely for someone to search for) be exactly what's in the infobox, "Women's cycling road race at the Games of the XXIX Olympiad" (or just "at the 2008 Summer Olympics")? I'd be interested in your thoughts, but this would probably require a much bigger discussion within the Olympics Wikigroup itself and such. Staxringold talkcontribs 16:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't quote me on it, but the article name seems to be a result of the hierarchy of these Olympic articles; Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics is the "parent article" for this one, so the appendage of "Women's road race" with a dash seems appropriate here. I have a question, though: should "Women's" be capitalized? Dabomb87 (talk) 21:40, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Support with comments Looks good, but ref 18, "Wet Weather disrupts Olympic Schedule" has gone walk abouts, please fix.  Aaroncrick (Tassie Boy talk) 23:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems the link is working again. --Tone 07:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. Time really does help to find new issues. But I've fixed them already, so I give my full support for this article. Parutakupiu (talk) 01:16, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Image review: all images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 13:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments: Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 13:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:MOSFLAG asks for names next to flags on first mention in tables/lists for clarity purposes. In the same spirit, abbreviations might be just as confusing to readers (ref: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (icons)).  Can the first mention of a country name be in full?  An abbreviation can be attached, e.g. "(Norway, NOR)", if abbreviations are desired to be used in later repetitions.
 * I brought this issue up before at Featured article candidates/Ice hockey at the Olympic Games/archive1: those pictograms are not the official ones, are they? As such, by putting them in a Navbox titled "Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics", would readers be possibly mislead into thinking they are official pictograms?
 * The rationale behind the pictograms is probably the same as for the ice hockey. They are not official but they have been created juts for WP purposes and they are standardized in all Olympic articles. And I suppose this is good since of official were used, that would present copyright issues and they would change for events of every edition of the Games. Regarding the MOS with the countries, I see there is some disagreement at that talk page. Your rationale is fair but if this is to be changed, it needs to be addressed at the template level, I don't think it's wise to change it just in this article. I personally don't think full names are really needed in this case since there is a link directly at the abbreviation but that's just one opinion. --Tone 22:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Although free for use, these unofficial pictograms could mislead readers and that is the main contention here. Should we make them think that those pictograms are official Olympic logos?  Would that not be deliberate misrepresentation?  Jappalang (talk) 01:48, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How do the pictograms mislead the readers? Why would the reader think that the logo is the official logo? Nothing says that the logos are official, nothing even suggests that. I can not see the problem here. --EdgeNavidad (talk) 06:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have stated the concern above, but I will be more explicit and clearer here.
 * The article is titled "Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics – Women's road race" and is illustrated with the winner of the event, which is fine and dandy. The reader, however, comes in expecting Olympics as the main background and context of things in this article.
 * There is a navbox on the right just under the Infobox; it is titled "Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics ". Note the emphasis.  The pictograms are in the navbox, with that heading, under sub-titles of "Road cycling", "Track cycling", etc, and each link brings the reader to a "Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics - event".
 * A reader is very likely to get the impression that those pictograms are official 2008 Summer Olympics icons. Jappalang (talk) 10:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Would it solve anything adding alt text to the pictogram images stating they are not official? Parutakupiu (talk) 10:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I see your arguments, jappalang, but the conclusion (that the reader is very likely to get the impression that those pictograms are official 2008 Summer Olympics icons) is in my eyes a non sequitur. The logical conclusion for the reader is that the pictograms have something to do with the Olympics. But it would be strange (in my eyes) for the reader to think that because the words "2008 Summer Olympics" are close to the pictogram, the pictograms are official. And any reader that for some reason might think that the pictograms are official, can click on the pictogram, go to the file description, and read that the pictogram is unofficial. As far as I know, that is where information about the images is usually stored in Wikipedia.
 * On the other hand, if you say that it made you think that the pictograms are official, there is at least one reader that interprets it that way, and probably a lot more. Most likely, the official pictograms are not possible, so what would solve the problem? Alt texts, as Parutakupiu suggested? --EdgeNavidad (talk) 12:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Generally, readers are not likely to just go click on the pictograms to verify the authenticity; they would simply mistake them as official logos of the 2008 Olympics and click to read the other races. They could be fooled because the Olympics have official pictograms for each year's events and the icons are broadcast on TV programmes (transition screens).  I am not sure "alt" text are the way to go.  One, alt text do not show up (even in tooltips) unless images cannot be rendered.  I see these pictograms as "okay" to be the header of general navboxes, e.g. "International road cycling competitions", "Mountain biking races in France", etc.  Having them specifically in a navbox for Olympics could mislead.  Jappalang (talk) 01:18, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, it is possible to think that they are official. But it is also possible to make no assumption at all and I'd think an average reader would do just that. In any case, if the reader checks Olympic articles from other Games, it quickly becomes clear that those pictograms are not the official ones of these specific Games. And besides, if someone makes an assumption without checking (like using this pictogram under GFDL somewhere else and stating it's the official one of the 2008 Games), it's not our fault. Since the picture description clearly states the nature of it and even provides a link to official pictograms, I still don't see an issue here... But I believe we are straying from the topic here, and this is the debate about the article and not about the template. If any changes are to be made, you should propose them at Olympics Wikiproject. --Tone 07:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I contributed a bit to this article and didn't realize it was up for nomination. I don't mean to meddle at this late stage but would be it be at all useful to provide context to the doping case i.e.

"Concerns had been raised before the Olympics, upon investigations carried out by drug experts, that some positive results for EPO were being returned as negative, and Jörg Jaksche, a cyclist implicated in the Operación Puerto doping case, believed that (as in the Operación Puerto case) doctors, athletes, and potentially cycling teams, would have colluded with each other before the Games. Apart from Moreno sample, there were no major doping cases at the time in the cycling events, although the silver medalist in the men's road race, Davide Rebellin, returned a positive test for EPO upon retesting."

...or is this excessive? Yohan euan o4 (talk) 00:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe it would be more appropriate to include this paragraph in the Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics as the main article on cycling? For this specific article, I believe it's a bit too much/too broad. --Tone 07:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment – I gave the article a full review at the first FAC, and little has changed. This sentence from the race recap caught my attention, though: "A steady pace set by the German team caught them soon after." It sounds like the pace caught the lead group, not the riders who took advantage of the pace. A simple tweak should make this clearer.  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 01:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 00:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.