Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dan Fouts/archive1

Dan Fouts

 * Nominator(s): Harper J. Cole (talk) 14:07, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

This article is about quarterback Dan Fouts, who led the NFL in passing for four consecutive years from 1979-1982. He led the Air Coryell offense, which placed an unprecedented emphasis on the passing game. As a Hall of Famer, his article is graded as top priority by the National Football League WikiProject. This is my first attempt at a FAC article after getting 10 articles to GA status, so I'll be interested to see the difference. Harper J. Cole (talk) 14:07, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Image review

 * Suggest adding alt text
 * Don't use fixed px size
 * File:1986_Jeno's_Pizza_-_53_-_Dan_Fouts_and_Don_Macek_(Dan_Fouts_crop).jpg: if this was from a republication then Jeno's would not be the author. Was there a copyright notice in the original publication? Ditto File:Jeno's_Pizza_54_Fouts_vs_49ers.pdf. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added the alt text and deleted where I'd fixed a px size. The Jeno's Pizza card comes from this image originally. I struggle with the rules on when these images are allowed, but there are about forty images from the Jeno's Pizza series in use on Wikipedia, so I thought they would probably have been challenged by now if they weren't okay. I'm just going to tag in, as a contributor to the Fouts page who I think understands image usage better than I do. Harper J. Cole (talk) 16:04, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I wasn't the file uploader. From what I generally notice on Commons, these promotional card sets typically are noted as not having a copyright notice on them.—Bagumba (talk) 00:05, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, the original image has this quote under licensing: This work is in the public domain because it was published in the United States between 1978 and March 1, 1989 without a copyright notice, and its copyright was not subsequently registered with the U.S. Copyright Office within 5 years. Unless its author has been dead for several years, it is copyrighted in the countries or areas that do not apply the rule of the shorter term for US works, such as Canada (50 pma), Mainland China (50 pma, not Hong Kong or Macau), Germany (70 pma), Mexico (100 pma), Switzerland (70 pma), and other countries with individual treaties. Harper J. Cole (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see that, but if the Jeno's cards were a republication as stated in the description, then the lack of copyright notice on them does not preclude the images having been copyrighted - for that we would need to confirm there was no notice on the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:31, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think I understand; I've found one of the images in a recent article (image 12 of 44 in the photos section). As it's credited to (AP/Al Messerschmidt), does that mean that it's unusable (and the rest of the Jeno's set, by extension)? Harper J. Cole (talk) 11:42, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That link is from 2021, and is not the original publication (if any) prior to the card's release. If there is still concern, I'd suggest nominating it for discussion at Commons, where it can be formally vetted. —Bagumba (talk) 15:31, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That might be best. I'm not very familiar with Commons; should I start a thread in the Help Desk? Harper J. Cole (talk) 19:44, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've opened up a thread in Wikimedia. Harper J. Cole (talk) 22:43, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * please see response in the copyright forum. Harper J. Cole (talk) 21:39, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The image appears here credited to AP/AI Messerschmidt. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:23, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I've relayed this on to the copyright reviewer for response. Harper J. Cole (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The copyright reviewer has responded now. Harper J. Cole (talk) 13:41, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: The Commons discussion was archived here.—Bagumba (talk) 08:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

'Drive-by comment'
 * The "honors" section has TEN separate paragraphs, all of just one sentence. Surely some of these can be combined? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:56, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I've re-worked this now, reduced to three paragraphs. Harper J. Cole (talk) 16:04, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Sandbh
I read the introductory sentences for the lede paragraphs:


 * "Daniel Francis Fouts (born June 10, 1951) is an American former football quarterback who played for the San Diego Chargers of the National Football League (NFL) for his entire 15 season career."

What value does "entire" add? What years did his career span?


 * "Fouts played for the Oregon Ducks in college, breaking numerous records and later being inducted into both the Oregon Sports Hall of Fame and the University of Oregon Hall of Fame."

What's the home state of the Oregon Ducks? What value does "both" add?


 * "Early in 1978, Don Coryell became the new head coach of the Chargers, overseeing a rapid on-field improvement, and installing the pass-oriented offensive scheme that would become known as Air Coryell."

"What does this have to do with the Dan Fouts? Was the on-field improvement the result of installing the Air Coryell scheme?"


 * "Fouts led the Chargers to three consecutive AFC West division titles (1979-81) and a further playoff berth in 1982."

What is a playoff berth?


 * "Fouts lives in Sisters, Oregon, and was a color analyst for NFL games on CBS television and Westwood One radio."

What does living in Sisters have to do with being a color analyst?

On a separate matter, "also" is used about two dozen times in the article; in most cases it can be deleted and still get the same point across. Three of the four "however"s used in the article could likewise be deleted. Sandbh (talk) 06:43, 11 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I've modified these sentences to hopefully deal with the problems, and reduced the instances of "also" and "however". I removed the reference to where he lives from the lede entirely, as it's not crucial to the article. With regard to the home state of the Oregon Ducks, Oregon is itself a state. I took out the bit about the on-field improvement from the Coryell line, but left in that his offense was pass-oriented, as this was directly relevant to Fouts. Harper J. Cole (talk) 11:42, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

For reference, the items I raised are examples that should mostly be ironed out before coming to FAC, e.g. via WP:PR or WP:GOCER. FAC is not the place for these processes, as I've learnt. What I'm concerned about is that if I found these shortcomings just by (mainly) reading the introductory sentences in each lede paragraph, then I'm not looking forward to reading the paragraph intro sentences for the rest of the article, let alone the following sentences in each of the rest of the paragraphs that make up the article.

I intend to read the introductory sentences in the rest of the article, and maybe some sample paragraphs, and form an overall view on that basis. Sandbh (talk) 01:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I read the introductory sentences in the rest of the article, and some of the paragraphs. I was not able to follow the logical flow of the article on the basis of its introductory sentences. Some of them do well; at other times there were numerous references to the Chargers, and the occasional introduction of coaches like Bill Walsh, without indicating the overall premise of the paragraph in question. I had to do too much work to figure out where Fouts entered the picture. Of course, I could do this by reading the rest of the paragraph and eventually working it out, but that defeats the purpose of the introductory sentence. On this basis, I am unable to support the FAC nomination. Sandbh (talk) 07:14, 19 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Coordinator comment at three weeks in and no general supports, this one is likely to be archived in a few days if progress towards a consensus to promote does not occur. Hog Farm Talk 03:31, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Bagumba
Generally, there should be less reliance on analysis of Fouts' performance by citing statistics from primary source stats databases, and more based on statements from reliable secondary sources. For example, this passage is based purely on pro-football-reference.com stats as chosen by Wikipedia editors: "His touchdown total was less than his interception total (16–22) for the first time since 1977, his completion percentage of 58.6% was his worst since 1976, and his passer rating dropped to 71.4, his worst since 1975 and below the NFL average of 74.1."

A secondary source offers more analysis, and less concern over OR by WP editors. For example, the Evening Tribune wrote: "A high-percentage passer who produced 47 300-yard games prior to last year, Fouts last year completed 252 of 430 passes, with 16 touchdowns, 22 interceptions and only one 300-yard performance. His quarterback rating of 71.4 was his lowest since 1975 and placed him 17th among NFL passers. Some observers said Fouts can no longer throw deep, while others charged the future Hall of Famer was too beaten up, too battered to be effective anymore." —Bagumba (talk) 10:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Comment by nominator
Thanks for the feedback, all. Hopefully I can use some of this in future. As the article seems to be a long way off passing without a major re-write, I'd suggest failing it on the occasion. Harper J. Cole (talk) 19:39, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Withdrawn per the nominator's request. The usual two-week hiatus will apply.

Gog the Mild (talk) 22:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC)