Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dan Leno/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 07:02, 15 April 2012.

Dan Leno

 * Nominator(s): Cassianto (talk) and Ssilvers (talk)

We are nominating this for featured article because we have expanded this biography article using all of the major sources about this subject, and we believe that it now satisfies the criteria for Feature Articles. The article has completed a peer review and was promoted to Good Article. The subject, Dan Leno, was a leading music hall comedian who was also a notable actor in Victorian burlesque and pantomime. We hope that you enjoy reading this article as much as we have enjoyed writing it, and we look forward to all comments and suggestions. -- Cassianto (talk) 23:31, 26 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - the article is well written, thoroughly and comprehensively sourced and meets all the criteria for FA status. Jack1956 (talk) 06:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Your support is greatly appreciated. --  Cassianto (talk) 10:01, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Declaration of interest: I have made 14 contributions to the article, mostly on minor matter of prose. I also helped peer review the article, when such small queries as I raised were dealt with to my satisfaction. A few points relating to material added since then (or that I missed at the time – apologies if so). They are all minor, and do not affect my support.


 * Lead
 * the Huntsman is italicised, but your (preferable) practice elsewhere is to put the titles of sketches in inverted commas.
 * Fixed. -- Cassianto (talk) 09:58, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Family background and early life
 * "due partly to alcoholism" – grammatical tweak needed: either "owing partly to alcoholism" or "which was due partly to alcoholism".
 * Changed to the latter. -- Cassianto (talk) 09:58, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Early career
 * "step-father" – but he's a "stepfather" in the previous section
 * Changed for consistancy. -- Cassianto (talk) 09:58, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * "The Comic Trio (Mr & Mrs Leno and Dan Patrick..." – are there really no full stops after "Mr" and "Mrs" in the source?
 * Yes there was. Now added. -- Cassianto (talk) 09:58, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * "amongst others, the Varieties Theatre" – "among" would be plainer
 * Changed. -- Cassianto (talk) 09:58, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * 1880s
 * "The site is now the Lyceum Theatre" – two points here. The site isn't the Lyceum; and the statement is apt to become out of date. See Manual of Style/Dates and numbers. Something like "The Lyceum Theatre was built on the site in 18xx"
 * fixed. -- Cassianto (talk) 09:58, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * This has convinced me that the Lyceum Theatre in Sheffield is a distraction to the reader. I have moved the statement into the footnote. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:30, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * "he and Lydia moved" – name not pronoun preferable at first mention in a paragraph
 * Re-worded for now. Ss do you agree with this? -- Cassianto (talk) 09:58, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I put the date back at the beginning of the sentence and clarified above that they were married in 1883. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Pantomime
 * "I am inclined to think…" – double quotes for "the cake" but single for 'babes'
 * Fixed. Both now double. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Later career
 * "After a run of two years…" – nearly two years
 * OK, done. I also removed the word "gradually", as it didn't really add anything - it is understood that his loss of interest didn't happen over night.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * "their son, Prince George and his wife, Princess Mary" – Better to refer to them by their titles (created earlier that month), the Prince and Princess of Wales; Leno himself did so in your quote below.
 * This change was made in response to a previous comment that we should clarify who is meant for modern and/or foreign readers who are not up on this. I am now changing it to "their son George and his wife, Mary, the Prince and Princess of Wales.  Does that cover all bases? -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This change looks good with me. -- Cassianto (talk) 15:48, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That will do very well. Even the most Debrett-obsessed editors (and there are a few of them) could hardly object to that. Tim riley (talk) 16:02, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Charity and fundraising
 * "Music Hall's first trade union" – in the lead you don't capitalise the generic "music hall"
 * Now lower case. Thanks!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The article is comprehensive, thoroughly referenced, copiously illustrated (laptop users with wide screens will find occasional sandwiching of text between images) and well balanced in its treatment of the subject. – Tim riley (talk) 08:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your excellent comments Tim. I hope all points have been addressed  to your satisfaction. -- Cassianto (talk) 16:05, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:13, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Why italicize article name in ODNB entry?
 * Itals removed. -- Cassianto (talk) 18:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Should be quotes, not italics. Fixed now.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:59, 28 March 2012 (UTC)


 * FN 12: page?
 * reference page proved problematic to find again. Replaced with another. -- Cassianto (talk) 04:42, 29 March 2012 (UTC)


 * FN 32: formatting. Also, publisher?
 * Format corrected. Publisher info added accordingly. -- Cassianto (talk) 22:16, 28 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Compare formatting of FNs 9 and 73. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:13, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Now consistent. -- Cassianto (talk) 21:52, 28 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I peer reviewed this a couple months back, and was impressed by the quality then. I've started reading through, and am again struck by the article's quality. I've made a couple minor copyedits, feel free to revert. A few small questions:


 * I'm curious why you used "clog dancing" vs "clogging"?
 * I'm led to believe that "clogging" is an American term and "Clog dancing" is British. See here for a comparison.  I can change if I'm wrong.  Ss what do you think? -- Cassianto (talk)
 * I think that clog dancing is clearer to all readers. Everyone reading it will know that we are talking about dancing, not drains.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:25, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fine then, as you might guess: I am an American--but not a plumber. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm also an American, but definitely not a dancer! -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:38, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * LOL! -- Cassianto (talk) 21:07, 29 March 2012 (UTC)


 * "Leno and Danvers formed a close relationship." Did they form the close relationship before or after Danvers joined the act?
 * Elaborated on. -- Cassianto (talk) 19:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)


 * "Leno's clog dancing had become so good that he won the world championship". Was this in an age group or overall?
 * It was overall. Amended. -- Cassianto (talk) 20:33, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that "world championship very clearly indicates that it was "overall". The addition of the word "overall" was awkward and did not add anything, so I deleted it.  If the contest had a been an "age group" contest, then we would have had to say so, but I think this is better as is. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:04, 29 March 2012 (UTC)


 * "paying sixpence to see young Leno star in" I'm not sure about describing him as "young Leno" again here. He would have been 23, correct?
 * Good point. Removing "young". -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:25, 29 March 2012 (UTC)


 * "three of Leno's best known songs that depicted life". Should "best known" be hyphenated here?
 * Hyphenated. -- Cassianto (talk)


 * Alright, it's getting late here, I'll be back again tomorrow. Mark Arsten (talk) 05:21, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Good set of comments Mark. Thanks! -- Cassianto (talk) 20:33, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments! -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:04, 29 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright, back again. Fixes from last time look good to me.


 * "The pantomime was a triumph, with theatres reporting record attendance." I'd suggest" "The pantomime was a triumph: theatres reported record attendance."
 * Swapped for your suggested alternative. -- Cassianto (talk) 07:31, 30 March 2012 (UTC)


 * There are fairly long quotes at the end of the "Pantomime" and "Later career" sections, perhaps block quotes.
 * I took a look at these. They are both less than three lines.  It is borderline as to whether they should be block quoted.  Cassianto, if it looks better to you to use block quotes, and does not seem to interfere with the nearby images, feel free to go ahead.  I previewed it with block quotes and prefer it without, but I don't feel strongly. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:34, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No I completely agree with this. I much prefer it without block quotes.  -- Cassianto (talk) 22:46, 31 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Not a big deal, but in the mid paragraph of "Later career" you start two sentences in a row with "Leno".
 * I changed a couple of the many "Leno" references to "the comedian". -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:10, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This reads a lot better and is a preferred replacement for the over-repeated use of his surname. -- Cassianto (talk) 09:08, 31 March 2012 (UTC)


 * There are a couple fairly short sentences in the last paragraph, not sure if there's a good solution though.
 * One of them is slightly longer now; I think it's OK now, unless someone has a brilliant suggestion. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:10, 31 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I can honestly say this was a pleasure to read, and I'm thankful for the work the nominators put into it. I'm now happy to Support its promotion to featured status. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:51, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Mark for your comments and your support. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:20, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ditto. An excellent PR and some great comments here have helped immensely. Thanks again. -- Cassianto (talk) 07:37, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

 Comments Support from Lobo. I'm leaning to support this lovely article, which I read through with ease and pleasure, but I have a couple of points:
 * I feel like we need a little bit more about the significance of the Grand Order of Water Rats. It is seen as important enough to come in the introductory statements of the lead, but I doubt many people will know what it is (I had to look at the article) and why this was such a significant appointment. When I first read that sentence in the lead, I was sort of thinking "...so what?" Do you definitely think it was an important enough role to be mentioned so early on? It doesn't even get much attention in the article.
 * Good point. We eliminated the mention of the Water Rats from the Lead and clarified the information about them below. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:35, 3 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Might be a good idea to mention in the lead that he started his career primarily as a dancer?
 * Yes, definitely we should mention the clog dancing in the Lead. Done.  Cassianto, is it true that he was "primarily" a clog dancer, even into the 1870s?  When did his comic acting and singing became as important as the dancing? -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify - Leno was an active clog dancer into at least the early 1870s where he won the belt. According to sources, Leno clog danced professionally until about 1875.  Between then and 1885 it was the era of comedy sketches which incorporated dance (unknown if clog) with music hall and pantomime coming in the late 1880s and 1890s.  I would say the importance of the acting and comedy commenced around the time he moved to London.  -- Cassianto (talk) 16:12, 3 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Not sure the "List of Dan Leno performances" should be linked to as the "main article", since you arguably get more information on this page. I think "see also" would be better.
 * Good, yes. How about "Further"?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. -- Cassianto (talk) 16:12, 3 April 2012 (UTC)


 * His marriage is currently written about twice. I feel like it could quite easily be removed from the 1880s section, since it didn't seem to have any impact on his career at the time. Either way, I don't think it should get a full on description twice.
 * Now it is clarified that Lydia joined the family act, and the repetition is minimized. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Funily enough, I only looked at this earlier and I thought then that this could do with trimming down. Agreed entirely. -- Cassianto (talk) 16:12, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Leno was certainly an interesting chap, thank you for your work on the article. -- Lobo (talk) 09:08, 3 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Lobo, for these excellent comments. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks a lot for these points Lobo. A great set of comments! -- Cassianto (talk).


 * Changes to the article have been made which I'm happy with, and I have switched to a full support. I think the new opening is a big improvement (although perhaps there should still be some mention of his charity work later in the lead?), thanks for that. There's still a bit of repetition re the marriage, but I understand now that there is a need to mention it both times. Yep, no complaints left from me. :) -- Lobo (talk) 18:30, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Delegate note -- Progressing well, still needs image review and source spotcheck by the look of it... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:22, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll ask around for an image reviewer. -- Cassianto (talk) 15:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Leno4.jpg: source given is British - when was this image published in the US? Current licensing tag may be incorrect, depending on answer. What is its copyright status in the UK? Same applies to File:Dan_Leno.jpg
 * Date specified as 5 November 1899 and tags replaced with . -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * UK works with the PD-1923 tag should also have a tag indicating their status in the UK. The solution used by File:Leno_magazine.jpg is a good one
 * Tag replaced with . -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Augustus_Harris.jpg needs a US PD tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Tag added. -- Cassianto (talk) 21:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Tag replaced with . Are the images ok now, Nikkimaria?  Thanks for your review! -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Almost - File:The_Railway_Guard.jpg, File:Leno-Beefeater.jpg, File:Campbell_and_Nicholls_1888.jpg, File:Leno_as_Sister_Ann_1901.jpg, File:Leno3.jpg still need a UK tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:07, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * OK. I think this is now correct. Nikkimaria, could you just check these and tell me if this tag is correct? Images are not a real strong point for me. -- Cassianto (talk) 17:25, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Think so, yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:19, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Comments from Eisfbnore
 * I can't help saying that I think the infobox is, in its current shape, a WP:DISINFOBOX. It contains merely info on his date of birth & death – both of which can also be found in the lead. Please kill it.
 * OK, done! -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:17, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * "Reviews were mixed. One newspaper reported that the house roared its approval, while another complained that his English humour was out of date" – The first sentence is a bit short and stubby; please combine it with the next sentence with a colon.
 * Done! -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:17, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * "Leno began to drink heavily after performances, and by 1901, like his father and stepfather before him, he had become an alcoholic." – Please move the comma from after 'performances' to after 'and', as the parenthetical phrase is 'by 1901', not 'and by 1901'.
 * I added a comma after "and", but we definitely need one before "and", because an independent clause follows the conjunction. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:17, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

These are all my comments; I'll be happy to support once my quibbles have been dealt with. Eisfbnore (下さいて話し) 23:57, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Support on prose, esp. grammar and style; perspicuity and comprehensiveness not checked. -- Eisfbnore (下さいて話し) 00:44, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your review, comments and support! -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:27, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, same goes for me. Your support is very much appreciated. -- Cassianto (talk) 09:14, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Support I was the GA reviewer and this was one of the cleaner reviews I have done.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:28, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "née" is such an unusual term for the reader (I never heard of it before editing here) that it might be helpful to link it to something. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:17, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry it's an English term. Linked. -- Cassianto (talk) 14:40, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's just as much an American usage as an English one. It's a short form of the French naitre (to be born) and is commonly used in biographies.  It can also refer to the original name of anything.  The American Webster's Collegiate Dictionary uses this example: "Cape Kennedy née Canaveral in Florida". -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:46, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Where did the convention Theater, municipality, come from. To me it suggests that there are multiple venues of that name. Where as Theatre in municipality or municipality's Theatre tells the reader where it is located without implication. Is this convention common? Although I suspect there are multiple Princess's Theatres I doubt that there is more than one Cosmotheca Music Hall. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:28, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Good question. I don't know, so I have changed them all to "in".  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * At your leisure, you could changed some of them to municipality's Theatre for variety.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Source spot-check. Not happy with the first two. Many of the sources unavailable but was able to check Anthony.
 * Ref 5, close paraphrasing; also, why the discrepancy between "Theatre" and "Music Hall"?
 * Article text: "In 1862, Leno's parents and elder brothers appeared at the Surrey Theatre in Sheffield before moving on to engagements in other cities."
 * Source text: "In June 1862 they appeared for three weeks at the Surrey Music Hall, Sheffield, before moving on to engagements in Manchester, Glasgow, and Northampton."
 * re-worded. -- Cassianto (talk) 20:55, 13 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Ref 6(e), fails verification
 * Article text: "Leno and Campbell's pantomimes from 1889 were Jack and the Beanstalk (1889 and 1899), Beauty and the Beast (1890 and 1900), Humpty Dumpty (1891 and 1903), Little Bo-peep (1892), Robinson Crusoe (1893), Dick Whittington and His Cat (1894), Cinderella (1895), Aladdin (1896), The Babes in the Wood (1897) and the Forty Thieves (1898). Leno often played the dame opposite Marie Lloyd's principal girl."
 * Source text: Does not mention some of these pantomimes, and does not support last sentence.
 * I now have added a reference for the pantomimes. -- Cassianto (talk) 19:16, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ref 30, mostly OK but some close paraphrasing
 * Article text: "Leno took on the role at very short notice and without knowing the dialogue. His improvisational style, and the scenes he shared with Alma Stanley, were so well received that he was credited with saving the flagging production. When Leno and Stanley left a few months later, the producers closed the show."
 * Source text: "He went on stage at the Strand Theatre at very short notice ... 'without knowing ... the dialogue.'"; "But his improvised comedy was so well received that he temporarily saved the show."; "Their joint departure sealed the fate of Atalanta."
 * fixed. -- Cassianto (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Ref 31(a), fails verification OK
 * Article text: "During the 1890s, Leno's biggest rival for the music hall audience was Albert Chevalier."
 * Source text: "... his only significant rival being a newcomer to the variety stage, Albert Chevalier."
 * Being an "only significant rival" would surely make one a "biggest rival" would it not? -- Cassianto (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Whoops, that was my copy/paste mistake. Sorry. This one is fine. -- Laser brain  (talk)  22:15, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No worries. I reworked it anyway :-) -- Cassianto (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ref 79, OK
 * Article text: "Near the end of his life, Leno co-founded The Music Hall Artistes Railway Association, which entered a partnership with the Water Rats, to form music hall's first trade union."
 * Source text: "In 1906 the Music Hall Artistes' Railway Association, an organisation co-founded by Dan, collaborated with the 'Water Rats' to form the first music-hall trade union." -- Laser brain  (talk)  14:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * delete comma after "Rats". -- Cassianto (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks to everyone who contributed time and expertise to help us with this article! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:08, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes what a pleasure it has been. I am indebted to everyone who has reviewed and commented on this article.  Thank you all so much. -- Cassianto (talk) 15:34, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.