Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dancing the Dream/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:37, 20 April 2010.

Dancing the Dream

 * Nominator(s):  Pyrrhus  16 ' 19:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)''

I am nominating Dancing the Dream for FA because I have worked on this book article for several months and feel that it meets the FA citeria. Billed as "an inspirational and passionate volume of unparalleled humanity", Dancing the Dream was written by Michael Jackson and received somewhat negative reviews upon its release in 1992. Little has been published about this book in relation to the more "juicier" aspects of Jackson and his life, but I feel that this article is comprehensive in documenting Dancing the Dream. Thanks,  Pyrrhus  16 ''' 19:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments. No dab links or dead external links. Ucucha 19:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments My first reaction is that there is very little pictures. I understand that might be hard to get but isn't there any image at all? Perhaps one of his mother or one of Elizabeth Taylor?
 * As the article is quite a short one, I don't really feel there is a need to stick another picture in for the sake of decoration. There is no free use image of his mother, and if I were to add an image of Elizabeth Taylor, it would either squish the "Poems and reflections" header or be squished by the infobox. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 22:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)@
 * Ok. No other image? Perhaps one related to his death with the text that it was published again after he died? -- Esuzu ( talk  •  contribs ) 14:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, there is not one that would be appropriate for this article or that would enhance readers' understanding of the book. The book cover should be enough illustration for such a short article, in my opinion. Regards, Pyrrhus16 (talk) 15:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Also: The Many Faces of Michael Jackson has a google book link. and so has Michael Jackson: The King of Pop  and Michael Jackson: unauthorized . I would prefer it if they could be added even if it isn't a must.
 * I've added the google book URLs for these books. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 22:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Great.


 * The Spin magazine could surely be present in "References" than in "Notes" right? Same with Billboard in that case. (I'm not 100% sure of this though) -- Esuzu ( talk  •  contribs ) 22:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I suppose they could but I've always put newspapers and magazines into the notes section, and books into the references section. I find it easier and neater that way. Thank you for your comments. :) Regards, Pyrrhus16 (talk) 22:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, striking.

Support Very good article. A bit on the short side I'd say, but with over 3 million articles on the English Wikipedia, the shorter the better. I'm so proud that the wikiproject I founded is producing such great work, and I should commend you personally Pyrrhus for being an amazing editor on all things related to MJ in Wikipedia. Keep up the good work. I hope to see you at FAC many more times. UBER ( talk ) 01:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support and praise. It is very much appreciated. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 09:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Support. While I'm not very familiar with GA and FA books, from what I can see the article meets the FA criteria because it is well sourced, well written, has a neutral point of view and is informative. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 17:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * How can there be "approximately" 46 written pieces? Are some things only approximately written? Or do you mean there are 45, or perhaps 47? A number as specific as 46 cannot be approximate... how many poems, how many essays and how many instances of song lyrics are tere?
 * Thank you for having a look at the article. There are 46 written pieces by Jackson in the book. I've changed "approximately" to "exactly", to reflect this. I wouldn't want to say exactly how many specific instances of poems, reflections and lyrics I feel are in the book, as not all poems rhyme and one may argue that such-and-such a reflection is actually a non-rhyming poem. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 13:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * "were said to have been previously unreleased"? Who said it?
 * Clarified that it was the publishers. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 13:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Reissued? How long was it out of print?&bull; Ling.Nut 13:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No sources state when the book went out of print. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 13:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose 1a. I worked on a couple paragraphs for a while (see this diff). I think similar improvements could be made to the entire article, plus some minor reorganization, etc. [Note that I don't even consider my own contributions to be completely polished and ready for the spotlight, though I do believe the text is significantly improved.] &bull; Ling.Nut 00:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok. I'll go and see if I can find somebody to take a look at it. Thanks. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 10:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments I'm going through tidying up bits of prose, but a few things stick out.


 * "A poem expressing Jackson's feelings of loss following the death in 1990 of HIV/AIDS sufferer Ryan White" - shouldn't it just be AIDS? I'm not particularly fond of forward slashes in prose, but it isn't a sticking point.
 * Done.


 * "The piece had previously been published by his mother in My Family" - more information needed here. Perhaps just a footnote, but we could do with knowing a little more about My Family.
 * I've noted in the prose that the book was her 1990 autobiography.


 * "The 100 photographs in Dancing the Dream were said to have been previously unreleased by the publishers" - the lead says "about" 100 pics. Which is it?
 * Changed to "The photographs in Dancing the Dream (approximately 100 in total) were said by the publishers to have been previously unreleased..."


 * "as some had been featured previously in a 1985 Jackson calendar, and also the magazines Ebony and People. Others were stills from the music videos of "Remember the Time" and "Black or White", as well as images taken from a performance by Jackson at MTV's tenth anniversary celebration" - more dates would be good here. Just the years will be fine.
 * Added dates.


 * "Dancing the Dream featured artwork from the professional artist Nate Giorgio, who as an amateur artist had developed a professional relationship with the entertainer in the 1980s. While living in Broome County, New York, Giorgio had sent Jackson some of his portraits, and the two later became friends" - you may not recognise that as I've copyedited it a fair bit, but was it Giorgio or Jackson who lived in Broome County?
 * It was Giorgio who was living in Broome County. I've changed to "While Giorgio was living in Broome County, New York, the artist had sent Jackson some of his portraits, and the two later became friends."


 * "Giorgio was later commissioned by Jackson to create further works for his estate, including artwork for the 2009 tribute book The Official Michael Jackson Opus" - as above, but to check I haven't changed the meaning was Giorgio commissioned by Jackson's estate, or was he commissioned to produce works for Jackson's estate (ie his house)?
 * It was Jackson's estate that commissioned him to do the artwork. I've changed to "Giorgio was later commissioned by Jackson's estate to create further works, including artwork depicting the singer for the 2009 tribute book The Official Michael Jackson Opus."

More to come. Parrot of Doom 18:18, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:28, 14 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose for the following reasons: prose needs work throughout, not just isolated sentences. Some examples:
 * Dancing the Dream is fore-worded - fore-warded?
 * My mistake, the hyphen shouldn't be there. Corrected. Parrot of Doom 16:26, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Better without the hyphen; would be best not to use as a verb at all, in my view. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:32, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm only part-way through a copyedit on this article. I've been side-tracked by a few things, but as you know copyedits usually take a few run-throughs to get right.  Hopefully when I'm finished the prose will be adequate for FA, the facts I'll have to leave to the nominator(s). Parrot of Doom 16:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Poetry and essays[1][2] dealing with children - dealing with children? Also, if citations exist for the poetry and essays, then perhaps consider naming the specific pieces from the book.
 * Changed the sentence to "Poetry and essays[1][2] on children, animals and the environment feature prominently among the 46 creative texts in Dancing the Dream." Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I still don't understand why there are two citations after "poetry and essays". Is it a controversial point? If this is the section that describes the contents of the book, then use the primary source without citations. Also, the wording is still vague - what is a creative text?
 * Jackson muses on the environment - muses on the environment?
 * Changed to "Jackson promotes environmentalism in a poem that envisions seals who ponder if they will be killed by hunters." Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * one poem that envisions seals pondering - seals pondering?
 * As above. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, still have trouble with seals pondering.
 * The photographs in Dancing the Dream (approximately 100 in total) were said by the publishers to have been previously unreleased - were said by the publishers?
 * Changed to "The publishers of Dancing the Dream said that the photographs in the book (approximately 100 in total) were previously unreleased" Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I had a look at the source, and I'm afraid there's a problem here with WP:Close paraphrasing. See p. 234
 * and the two later became friends.[5] Giorgio was later commissioned by Jackson's - repetition here
 * Changed the second "later" to "thereafter". Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It was stated that despite the book being a bestseller, - stated by whom?
 * Clarified. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Other issues:
 * The piece had previously been published by his mother in her 1990 autobiography My Family, and was not the only material in Dancing the Dream to have appeared elsewhere. -- which other pieces and where and when were they published?
 * They are listed in the next sentences. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:38, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * More WP:Close paraphrasing.
 * Do sales figures exist? The lead mentions the book was best-seller, but that doesn't seem to be developed.
 * Added with the source you provided. Thanks. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Unfortunately more WP:Close paraphrasing.
 * Do reviews exists from book industry sources such as Publishers Weekly?
 * Added the source you provided. Thanks. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Giorgio was later commissioned by Jackson's estate to create further works, including artwork depicting the singer for the 2009 tribute book The Official Michael Jackson Opus.[5] - this isn't really germane to the scope of the article.
 * Removed. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Moonwalk was edited by the former First Lady of the United States Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis and became a bestseller upon its release.[7][8][9][10] - again, although an interesting piece of information, not relevant to an article about this book.
 * I've removed the bit about JKO, but kept the bit on its reception as it places the performance of this book in context. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The reference entry for the book itself is incomplete: needs publisher, publication date, place, and ISBN.
 * This? Done, if so. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Finally, I see this was nominated as a GAN and I'm curious what happened. It seems not to have passed. Were there still issues to be resolved? If so, I'd suggest it go back to GAN and then on to a peer review. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:21, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The article was quickly failed at GAN because the reviewer admittedly noticed that it had been waiting for over two months to be reviewed, and did not know whether I was around to address any issues. I was able to fix the few actionable objections raised in the failed review within the space of an hour, but decided not to bring it back there if there was a chance of it receiving a similar quick-fail review with no time allocated for discussion of minor issues. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Final comment - Thanks for your hard work today, but the article needs the following to be comprehensive: a full description of the contents (poetry, essays, photographs); a section on the thematic (themes) content of the pieces; and a complete rewrite of the close paraphrasing. Once that's done, I suggest another run at GAN and then to PR. Sorry, but in my view, there's still more to be done to make this a really dynamite article, and honestly anything about Michael Jackson deserves the best effort. I took the opportunity to read the sources, and I think you can eke quite a bit more material out of the little that exists. If you want help, let me know. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:17, 19 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.