Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Daniel Webster/archive1

Daniel Webster
(Self-nom) Well, I've worked on it the past week or so and I think its a good article. I applied for peer review status but I only got an automated bot (all of whom's suggestions I acted upon). So here I am. I hope you find it acceptable.TonyJoe 18:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The Peer Review started yesterday. You should have waited at least a week to get the suggestions before bringing the article for FAC. Talking about merits to be an FA, it clearly isn't neutral. I am pointing a few examples:
 * "Though poor and uneducated, Ebenezer Webster, who was widely respected and trusted throughout the community, was made a judge on the local court in 1791, a position which carried a salary of four hundred dollars."
 * "Seeing great promise in his son’s prodigious memory and strong budding intellect and knowing the regret of never having been educated himself, the Elder Webster resolved to use his new found windfall to educate young Daniel."
 * Look for such examples throughout the text. They are even in the lead but sometimes claims substantiated in the sections thereafter are exempted. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 18:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Reponse:Honestly after a day and only an automated bot I couldn't be sure that the Peer review would come to anything valuble looking toward the bottom of the list with articles like United Buddy Bears having no comments (having been submited on June 4th and others like Merv Griffin as well; either up or down, FAC is more likely to recieve comment while PR seems to be at times up in the air, hence Webster's presence here.


 * As for Neutrality... Ebenezer was poor and widely respected, else getting the position he received was a not impossible and was a big deal. Daniel Webster also did have a prodigious memory his entire life— he never referenced a sheet of paper during any of his many orations. I don't see these facts as violating any neutrailty whatsover. If you'd like I guess I could reference my sources in these claims if that's not going into too much detail but claims of his memory and intellect wouldn't be found to be objectional by even the most ardent Webster critic, contemporary or otherwise. I don't think the claims are stated with any sort of awe toward Webster or his dad, they just state as fact that webster had a great mind and people liked his dad so they gave him a job.TonyJoe 19:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Explaining: If you found that the article was good enough, you should have first closed the Peer Review before bringing it here. Coming back to objections, I had purposely italised words/phrases to point out POVs, etc. Explaining in words, how do we know that Ebenezer Webster was "widely respected throughout the community". Why is the sentence dramatised by stating with "Though poor and uneducated...". How do we know that he regretted never being educated himself and it was a deciding criteria for Daniel's education? Hope you understand the problems I am pointing out. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 19:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Once more: Not seeing a requirement that Peer Reviews be closed before a nomination, I didn't think it mattered either way. As for "widely respected throughout the community" and his regret at being uneducated, the latter has always been cited under page seven of the |Lodge biography ("his thoughts at once toward that education which he had missed, and he determined that he would give to his children what he had irretrievably lost himself) since its insertion into the article (a citation which followed two other claims of being educated and bullied at Exeter) and the latter ("widely respected") has since been deleted as it was uncited though its source is found on page five of the same biography ("His neighbors trusted him. They gave him every office in their gift, and finally he was made judge of the local court."); perhaps merely having their "trust" and "giving him every office in their gift" is not enough to declare respect so I axed it.
 * There is a definite requirement that peer review be closed before FAC. See WP:PR for list of instructions and rules. I have archived the PR myself. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 06:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * As for the so called "dramatization" of "though poor and uneducated," I admit it to be a bit superfluous (though it helps in establishing Webster's life long money problems) but its hardly an indication of a lack of neutrality, do I have to provide a reference for something a small as his family being very poor? If its required I will but it seems neither controvertial nor critical enough for such a measure.

Also, I've also added a direct quote on Webster's memory. TonyJoe 20:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Update: I've gone through the article and attempted to further address some of Ambuj Saxenal's concerns and removed statements like "eloquently defended" and "equal skill". I hope that this is the end of this problem?TonyJoe 03:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I think Ambuj Saxena is referring to weasel words - see WP:AWT. Andy t 15:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * As I said, reports of Webster's memory are now specifically cited (attributed to JFK), as are claims of his being one of America's greatest orators (in the legacy section and that's always been so). Claims of his father's respectibility have been removed. I do believe any of these minor pov problems have been dealt with, having been removed or cited, unless anyone has spotted more... :TonyJoe 16:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment. From what I know, if there are sentences that carry POV, they must be attributed in text. I will let others review it and if they don't agree with me, I will strike out my comments. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 17:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)