Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/December 1969 nor'easter/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain 04:14, 14 March 2011.

December 1969 nor'easter

 * Nominator(s): Juliancolton (talk) 02:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

For my first FAC in eight months, I present one of my proudest articles, which describes a highly significant, yet mostly forgotten, winter storm event. Drifts of snow following the storm were 30 feet high, which completely cut off some communities from the rest of the world, and proved victorious over snow removal equipment. I created this article in the first couple weeks of the year, and gave it a couple months to be polished and reviewed. My reason for nominating it is that I feel it is among the highest-quality accounts of a meteorological event, aside, of course, from tropical cyclones. The meteorological synopsis is extremely thorough, owing to the excellent research of Paul Kocin and his colleague Louis Uccellini. Notwithstanding my bias towards the article, it is clearly the most comprehensive description of the storm in existence. Juliancolton (talk) 02:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Source review
 * Earwig's tool found no copyvio; manual spotchecks found no concerning paraphrasing, but not all sources were checked
 * Be consistent in whether you have last name or first name first
 * On it. Juliancolton (talk) 15:29, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * "However, more recent data from the National Climatic Data Center (NCDC) classifies the nor'easter as a low-end "catastrophic" Category 4" - "catastrophic" does not appear in the cited source
 * I guess they must have changed the wording... fixed. Juliancolton (talk) 15:29, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Ref 12 should be noted as subscription/paywalled. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:19, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The only info I used from the article is what was available from the preview snippet. Do I still need to mark it as subscription? Thanks for the review, in any case. Juliancolton (talk) 15:29, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Disambig/External Link check - No dabs or dead external links. 1 external redirect which may lead to link rot; see it with the tool in the upper right of this page. -- Pres N  01:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure how to remedy that to be honest. Juliancolton (talk) 02:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Took care of it.-- Tærkast  ( Communicate ) 20:36, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Comments I like this article! Though I didn't notice any huge problems, I wanted to give you a few rewording suggestions:

"New England experienced a severe ice storm due as a frontal boundary established itself between warm ocean air and a wedge of cold air over interior New England."

I'm not sure what "due" means here. It appears to be a typo, but it could be some type of jargon, so I didn't remove it outright.
 * Fixed, bit of an "oops" there. Juliancolton (talk) 19:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

"which, in Albany, surpassed the old record by 17 in (43 cm)."

Maybe this could be changed to "former record"?
 * Sure thing. Juliancolton (talk) 19:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps "and a record at the time of $2 million USD was spent on snow removal." could be changed to "and $2 million USD was spent on snow removal, a record at that time."

"Governor Deane C. Davis declared a state of emergency and ordered the National Guard to assist with cleanup efforts."

Since Vermont was mentioned in the previous sentence and not this one, it's possible that there could be confusion as to what state Deane was governor of. Maybe you could add something like "In response," to the beginning of the above sentence?-RHM22 (talk) 03:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review! Really appreciate it. Re the Vermont comment, I think it's generally assumed that the governor corresponds to the last mentioned state, especially within the past two or three sentences. I'll fix it if you think it's that confusing, though. Juliancolton (talk) 19:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Support No, it's no big deal. It was just a suggestion, and I definitely don't think it's necessary at all. Article looks good!-RHM22 (talk) 19:54, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Cool, cheers. :) Juliancolton (talk) 20:13, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Comments –
 * Meteorological history: "in some of the major northeastern cities and southern New England. New England...". Try to avoid the repetition in the transfer from sentence to sentence.
 * Impact and aftermath: Excess word in "drifts reached up to to 30 feet in height."  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 02:26, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Got them both, thanks. Juliancolton (talk) 02:30, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Support
 * and at least 20 deaths are blamed on the nor'easter. - why the present tense?
 * Eh, dunno, it sounded good at the time. Changed. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * In the hardest-hit areas, snow removal on roadways was severely delayed, and the storm isolated some communities. - so because of the lack of snow removal, some communities were isolated? IDK, I feel that could be better worded. Is there an estimate on the number of communities isolated?
 * Reworded. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "The winter of 1969–1970 continued a long-term El Niño from the previous winter,[1] which produced two significant winter storms in the Northeast United States" - it might be hard to avoid, but could you find a way not to use "winter" three times in the same sentence?
 * Yeah, I removed the third instance. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You establish the connection between the El Nino and the two other winter storms, but you don't really say why the NAO is important here. Maybe just a little blurb on what it does would be good.
 * The effects of NAO are still being debated in meteorology circles, but there are definitely some correlations. It's just a neutral, objective observation for now. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ehh, IDK, there's just nothing there that indicates any importance. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 02:55, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not that important, it's just something for a little meteorological context. Juliancolton (talk) 20:35, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * But you don't provide that context, that's my issue. It's as arbitrary as saying "the solar radiation at the time of the storm was X". --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 22:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Little quibble - shouldn't the images alternate right, left, right? Or, did you do the placement intentionally?
 * Yeah, I played around with it and found this is the most visually appealing alignment. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "The nor'easter originated in a weak area of surface low pressure that formed over northern Texas by Christmas Day" - just gotta check, is there a better estimate than "by Christmas Day"? Also, a really minor quibble, but not all countries consider Christmas on December 25, and there doesn't seem to be any religious connotation to the article. Might just "December 25" work better?
 * Alright, changed to the date. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * How/when did the storm die?
 * I don't think there's anything in sources or maps that establish this. It probably simply fizzled out somewhere over the North Atlantic. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * M'kay. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 02:55, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, any reason there isn't an infobox?
 * An infobox would be really useless, since the only thing it would establish is that it was a nor'easter, what its minimum pressure is, and maybe peak snowfall. I only use infoboxes to organize an abundance of stats and details, not to just take up article space. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "Snow accumulated from the Appalachian Mountains in southern through western Maine, encompassing the entire Mid-Atlantic region." - missing wordfail?
 * Yeah, not sure what I was trying to say, so changed entirely. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "The highest totals were found immediately inland from the coast." - IDK, it doesn't look that way in the map. The highest totals look fairly far inland, not to mention the lede says "although precipitation changed over to rain near the coast due to an influx of warmer air."
 * True enough, think I relied on the source too literally. Fixed. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You go a lot into New England/New York impact, but there is very little about Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and southward.
 * I'll see if I can find any more. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Any luck? It was a huge area affected, according to the map, but you don't go into it at all. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 22:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Why no conversion for 40 inches, 30 feet, or 1 feet?
 * They're already converted previously in the article, and I try to avoid the prose just being a jumble of parenthesis and numbers if possible. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * IDK, sometimes I just skip the lede. It's hardly a jumble if you repeat it in the lede and then in the article, although I get your point. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 02:55, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It's like how we don't link things more than once the way I view it. Juliancolton (talk) 20:35, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright, I can see your viewpoint. Personally, I disagree, since linking and converting are totally different, since the latter is for accessibility concerns. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 22:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * When was the former record set in Albany?
 * Does the record in Vermont still stand? (greatest single snowfall total ever recorded in the state) - if so, that's fairly important
 * I'll check on these too. Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing for either of these. Juliancolton (talk) 20:35, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think further research needs to be done about Vermont. You don't specify where the peak total was in Vermont, just that 29.8 in fell in Burlington. A quick Google search shows this storm is 2nd on record in Burlington, recently surpassed by the blizzard in January 2010. That's a place to start. Also, I quickly found this report on monthly snow records in Albany, which shows the previous record was in 1915. IMO, the article appears to be poorly researched, considering how quickly I found these two items. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 22:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Much better now, and great find on the other impact. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 22:53, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

--♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 21:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Any damage estimate?
 * Thanks for the review! Juliancolton (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment - article is currently only linked from List of NESIS storms, and that in turn is only linked from a series of nor'easter storms which may (I haven't checked) only be linked among themselves or to the list. I know healthy linking to and from other articles is not a FAC requirement, but it astounded me that this article was only linked from a list. I would normally suggest that links be added in relevant places, but given the lack of existing links, I'm not entirely sure if that is a good idea. At least some linking should be a natural demand for an article, not a web of links created by the writers of an article or set of articles. Will wait to see what others say about this (if anything). Carcharoth (talk) 09:32, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll keep an eye out for places to link it. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments
 * Lead (and overall): I would expect to see something in the lead saying how long the storm lasted for, and how long the recovery took. You do say "late December 1969" and that it started on 25th, and that the worse of the storm took place on 26th and 27th, but the reader is left to work out for themselves that it might have been 2-3 days or something like that. The snowfall map lower down the article gives a range of 4 days. Is it not possible at all to say how long the snowfall lasted in some of the areas affected (e.g. where the snowfall was heaviest)? The latest date in the article is the 30th, but the article ends somewhat abruptly at that point, with no real closure. Do meterological records indicate when snowfall has melted completely on an area? There must be some system for measuring that.
 * I added a definite time frame to the first sentence. Honestly, I don't think it would be possible to determine when the snow from this particular storm melted. I imagine some of it stayed around until March, when warmer weather inevitably takes over, but even then we have to assume The Snow Hole retained a bit well into the dog days of summer. :) Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "The low peaked" - I'm guessing this has come up before, but it sounds strange.
 * Added another word. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "Inches of mercury, (inHg) is a unit of measurement for pressure. It is still widely used for barometric pressure in weather reports and aviation in the United States, but is seldom used elsewhere." I was hoping for a conversion to mmHg, the measurement I am more familiar with.
 * I've actually never heard of mmHg being used in the real world, especially in US-related context. I guess I could add a third conversion if you really wanted it, but nothing else is converted to metric, so I'm not sure how well that would work. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Could it be written out in full the first time it is used? In print editions, people can't hover or click through to see what something means. Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm actually not sure the convert template can handled it being spelled out, and I think you'd be hardpressed to find inHg being referred to in writings as "inches of mercury". There's a lot people reading print editions can't do, so I think we shouldn't bend over too far backwards to accommodate them when Wikipedia is designed to be read online. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "reaching 40 in (100 cm)" - I'm not familiar with the abbreviation "in" for inches. I think this will confuse other readers as well.
 * Alright, spelled out on the first instance. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "Due to a number of factors including" - comma needed after 'factors'.
 * Done. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "frontogenesis" - this seems like an example of using a technical term for the sake of it. It would be simpler to say "weather front formation", wouldn't it?
 * Not really. Frontogenesis can also mean weather front strengthening/establishment, not necessarily formation. The term is linked, so I'm not too concerned. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, I know there is a consensus that terms can be linked and followed for people to understand them, but that fails to cater for readers of a printed copy of this article. Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Throwing in "Christmas Day" may confuse those who don't realise that this is 25 December
 * Yeah, fixed. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I still see "Christmas Day" in the article. The one you fixed earlier was one of two instances of this phrase. Carcharoth (talk) 03:18, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Oops... got it. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "A localized southerly low-level jet developed by midday over Mississippi and Alabama and drifted eastward." - is this part of the developing storm, or something different?
 * It's associated with the storm, but not exclusively part of it... I go into more detail about it later in the section. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You mention "jet" twice in the article. If someone is unfamiliar with what a jet is, they are left in the dark as to what role a "jet" plays in this storm. Think of it from the point of view of someone who has only ever heard of a jet aeroplane. Also, the link is not that helpful. It takes you to a section of the article jet stream and there the reader is faced with Barrier jet, Valley exit jet, and African easterly jet. Effectively, you have linked to a disambiguation section and left the lay reader in the dark as to what you were talking about in the article. Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I clarified that it's a jet stream, which should eliminate the confusion with aviation. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And the other point I made, that the reader following the link is left to work out for themselves what you meant here? If your sources don't say, fair enough, but I was expecting some sort of response here. To my mind, this is effectively an undealt with disambiguation link. Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Is "Mississippi and Alabama" synonymous with "southern Gulf Coast states" used in the previous sentence?
 * Not necessarily, but I'm not sure what you're shooting for to be honest. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * What I'm trying to do is picture in my mind the developing storm moving over the "southern Gulf Coast states", and then fitting that in with the "localized southerly low-level jet developed by midday over Mississippi and Alabama". Is this part of the development of the storm (i.e. you are going into more detail) or is it something that happened after the storm passed over? i.e. is the jet below, behind, or within (and part of) the developing storm? Carcharoth (talk)
 * It was associated with the storm's development. Whether it was geographically behind or ahead of the storm I don't know, but it was situated generally south of its center until the low stalled and the jet caught up with it. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * In the main body of the article, you say "The low turned northeast by early on December 26 as a result of the coastal front along the East Coast, at which time the storm underwent its first of two periods of rapid intensification [...] accelerated from Georgia to the coast of New Jersey". In the lead, you say "Upon reaching the U.S. East Coast, it intensified and turned northeastward, accelerating toward New England". Did it intensify before turning north-east, or did it turn north-east and then intensify, or both at the same time? The lead and main text seem to be saying slightly different things.
 * I'm not sure I'm really following, but I changed "East Coast" to "Eastern Seaboard", which connotes less of the immediate land-sea border than "East Coast". Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That does help, but it is the chronology I'm focusing on here. Did it intensify before turning north-east, or did it turn north-east and then intensify, or both at the same time? Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, reading the two excerpts you mentioned again, I'm confident they mean precisely the same thing. The storm hit the coastal plain, turned north, and began to intensify at the same time. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * On re-reading, I agree with you. I'm being overly pedantic here - apologies for that. Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * When you say "from Georgia to the coast of New Jersey", I think to myself that it must have been moving from inland Georgia to coastal New Jersey, but did it reach the East Coast or not, or turn before it reached the coast and moved parallel to the coast and moving closer as it went northwards? The lead says "Upon reaching the U.S. East Coast", but the main text seems to say it was held off the coast by the front and diverted north. Should the lead say "Upon approaching the U.S. East Coast"?
 * The storm more-or-less straddled the coast itself for most of its northward journey, as indicated by the track at File:December 26, 1969 nor'easter.jpg. I think the tweak I mentioned above should resolve this issue. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That does help. Is it possible to put something like "The storm more-or-less straddled the coast itself for most of its northward journey" in the article? I must confess here that I had not actually seen that File:December 26, 1969 nor'easter.jpg contained a track for the storm. The caption only said "Surface weather analysis of the nor'easter", so I mentally dismissed it as some complex diagram and thought to myself "what is really needed is a line showing the route the storm took". But now I look closer, I see that there is a dotted line along the coast - not very easy to see among all the other lines. I would suggest: (a) explicitly telling the reader that this image contains a line showing the route the storm took along the Eastern Seaboard; (b) highlighting that line in a different colour. Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I clarified the caption a bit, which should negate the need for further in-text elaboration. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The tweak to the caption does ease my concern, but I'm puzzled as to why you think avoiding further in-text elaboration is a good thing? Are you worried that further in-text elaboration may drift away from what the sources are saying? And regarding File:December 26, 1969 nor'easter.jpg - I presume that can be freely modified? Would highlighting the storm track misrepresent things in some way? I'm striking my objection, but it would help to make clearer that if people want to understand the 'squiggles', they should read surface weather analysis - I found some of the explanation there very helpful. I know you currently link that featured article already, but some readers will be more used to having a key explaining image symbols attached to the image, rather than having to go and read a Wikipedia article. There is, of course, the larger question of whether you are including these images for the reader to examine in detail and attempt to understand them, or whether they are decorative images intended to give readers only a superficial idea of what is shown (the low resolution of the images makes it difficult to examine them in any detail or read the numbers written on them, so they appear to be more decorative than something to be followed up by the curious reader). Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * A map showing the track of the storm would help here (the closest seems to be the snowfall map, which sort of shows the track). And a 3D animation showing the storm dynamics would help in the next paragraph as well.
 * That's quite the tall order! I'm not sure I can do much about this, short of providing more static maps. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah. But if anyone ever does do an animation! There are some nice animations out there (just not for this storm). Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll watch for one. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * File:December 1969 nor'easter 2.jpg - my US geography is hopeless. I eventually managed to work out (by clicking through to the image page) that this is showing the Gulf of Mexico coast of the southern US states, but it would help if the image caption in the article said that. The description page itself should give a scale or at least identify the extreme points at left and right and at top. And what the symbols and lines mean. Otherwise it is just squiggles on paper for most people.
 * Added a bit of geographical context. Surface weather analysis, which explains the "squiggles on paper", is linked in the previous caption. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * File:December 26, 1969 nor'easter.jpg has a source linked and an author listed and looks fine, but where did File:December 1969 nor'easter 2.jpg come from? Surely similar links and authorship details are needed there?
 * Not sure what happened, but fixed. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * For some of the images, you link directly to the image file as the source. The source link should actually be to the page on which the image is provided, as that page will (should) give details of the image. Ideally provide both, but the important one for verification and information purposes is the page documenting the image details, not the image file itself.
 * Not sure I follow unfortunately... Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * For any image, you can have two links: (1) The link to the image itself that you use to download the image; (2) A documentation page that tells you what the image is showing, who made it (i.e. showing that it is freely licensed) and so on. For any image you need at least the latter and if not obvious, both links will help make absolutely clear that the image is what it says it is. For example, look at any Library of Congress image - the links are to the documentation page. Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I see, fixed on the NESIS map. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I've struck the objection, but there is a deeper systemic problem here, in that the main meteorology sources seem to be geared to dynamic updates rather than historical records (compare their approach to that of an organisation like the Library of Congress or the New York Public Library). This may produce a problem with later accessing of records. Maybe use of something like WebCite is needed? You encountered this problem yourself in this very FAC where at 15:29, 21 February 2011 you say "I guess they must have changed the wording". Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "As the cyclone deepened" - what does it mean when you say a cyclone "deepens"?
 * "Deepen" (for a low pressure system to intensify) is very standard meteorological terminology, and sometimes has a very specific meaning. I'm hesitant to change it to anything else. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "several miles into the atmosphere" - maybe add the word "up" in there?
 * Eh, I feel like it would be a little redundant. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "assumed a negative tilt from northwest to southeast" - this is where my mental picture broke down and I wanted an animation!
 * The tilt is "northwest to southeast" and the storm is moving "southwest to northeast"? That is consistent with the trough being part of the front and perpendicular to the forward motion of the storm?
 * Let me try to explain it for you: broadly speaking, meteorology occurs vertically; different things are happening the further up you go into the sky. At the surface, we have a closed-off (meaning it has a defined center of low pressure) low pressure system. In this case, the low extended several miles up (to the 500-mb level), but at that point, it takes a completely different form. Instead of a closed cyclone, it's a broad, poorly defined, elongated region of lower pressures (a "trough"). This region directly correlates with the low at the surface. These troughs can either have a positive tilt (southwest to northeast), a neutral tilt (due north to due south), or a negative tilt (northwest to southeast). It's like the coordinate plane in mathematical terms. A nor'easter is considered "mature" when its associated 500-mb trough takes on a negative tilt, which allows the surface low to deepen and ride the coast northward. The forward movement of the surface low and the directional orientation of the 500-mb trough are not directly related, however. Also, the trough is a different weather feature from the coastal front, which is a dividing line between two masses of air of different densities or temperatures. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That does help, but how do you think that can be expressed in the article? Is there something that can be linked to? Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm honestly not sure how to explain it without going way off-topic or conducting original research (or bombarding the reference list with 15 sources that have nothing to do with the event). AFAIK there's not much to link to, so maybe that'll be a future project of mine. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "The low-level jet intensified to an extremely high 55 m/s (120 mph) as it began to wrap around the low from the south, enhancing moisture and warm air under areas of heavy precipitation." - I had forgotten about that low-level jet. What has it been doing since we last read about it drifting eastward over the southern US states? (This is a serious question, actually, as I had thought the jet had developed into the storm, yet here I find it mentioned again, wrapping itself around the low - it really would help to make clearer the high-level and low-level stuff, with diagrams).
 * It's probably been playing proverbial tag with the low, until it stalled and the jet was able to wrap into it. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, is it possible to tweak the balance slightly to explain things a bit more within the article? Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe an obvious question here, but is this low-level jet different to the winds experienced at the surface, or is it the same. i.e. the wind speeds you may see quoted with respect to this storm, are they the same as this 55 m/s you quote? I ask this because in the article you say "strong winds", "high winds", "bitter winds" and "gale-force winds", but don't use the phrase "wind speed" anywhere and only seem to give one wind speed measurement (55 m/s). Can you not say more on the wind speeds? Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Since there probably isn't much in the way of exact surface reports, I've linked Beaufort scale to the in-article mention of gale-force winds to give readers a general idea of what kind of force they're looking for. Juliancolton (talk) 20:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "Upon reaching New Jersey, the storm center slowed drastically and remained steady in intensity" - you don't give a date or time for this, though it seems a fairly key moment.
 * "While located just east of Long Island, the nor'easter began its second phase of rapid strengthening and attained its peak severity" - again, no time or date provided for this.
 * I think these two bullets should be addressed. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "While located just east of Long Island, the nor'easter began its second phase of rapid strengthening and attained its peak severity as it approached the Massachusetts coast. [...] snowfall propagated around the western end of the cyclone, reaching as far south as Long Island." - I'm afraid I got lost again here. I had to go look things up on a map with names of states on it, as the maps in the article don't have the names of the states on them, and so were of little use to me. What really confused me was the snow propagating round the western end and reaching southwards - I thought the storm was moving north-eastwards? I was also confused by "just east of Long Island" - does this mean the centre of the storm has now moved out over the coast and is over the sea? You then say it "it approached the Massachusetts coast", which from looking at a map is north-east of Long Island (with Connecticut around there as well). Now, if snowfall is propagating around the western end of the cyclone and reaching as far south as Long Island, that is going backwards to where the storm has just come from, so I am still confused here. Can you make the description any clearer?
 * In the northern hemisphere, low pressure systems rotate counterclockwise, or from south to east to north to west and back to south. The back-end precip was simply following the circulatory nature of the low, notwithstanding its directional movement. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Right. It now says: "snowfall propagated around the western end of the cyclone, reaching as far south as Long Island" What is not clear here is where the snowfall is coming from. It is propagating from somewhere to get to Long Island. From where, though? Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * From the other side of the storm. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is obvious from the discussion here, but I'm saying it is not obvious to the reader of the article who has not read this discussion. There is no picture of swirling cyclonic clouds like there are in hurricane articles to give the reader a clue that circular motion is taking place here. You need to make this explicit, IMO. Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * With cyclone, nor'easter, and low-pressure area linked in the article, I think even if readers didn't know storms rotated cyclonically, they can work it out. Again, I like to assume some reader competence, as otherwise it becomes a jumble of parenthetical and off-topic tangents in order to spoonfeed one or two people who might not have a basic understanding of the atmosphere. Juliancolton (talk) 20:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, and as I said below, the linking of nor'easter greatly improves things. I won't press the point here, but I do think you should (after this FAC is over) take time to consider whether people really know as much about the atmosphere as you think they do. I don't think storms rotating cyclonically is something that most people are aware of. Most people know that hurricanes rotate, but most people think of storms as just clouds forming and producing thunder and lightning. Certainly stuff like low-level jets (a point that remains unaddressed) is not common knowledge at all. Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "heavy snowfall in Upstate New York and Vermont" - is this inland, on the left-hand edge of the storm? It would help if you could make clear at some point the width of the storm, so people don't just think it is moving up the coast, but is reaching far inland as well.
 * I mention inland snowfall totals and effects numerous times in the article, so I think it should be clear that the storm was not confined to the coast (the snowfall map also clearly indicates this). Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The word "inland" appears once in the article and the word "interior" twice - those not familiar with US geography will only have those clues to go on. The word "coast" appears ten times. The track in the diagram shows the storm moving along the coast. Can you not phrase it something like "its delayed movement leading to heavy snowfall on its inland western edges in Upstate New York and Vermont."? Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * In the first sentence of the lead I'm very clear about where the storm occurred, and as far as I know, the article doesn't imply or suggest anywhere the storm's effects were confined to the coast. I'm going to assume some reader competence/common knowledge. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The article does seem to be silent on whether the storm had any effects at sea. If this is a storm rotating about a central point, and that point is on the coast, and the western edge is far inland, presumably this storm was creating havoc at sea on its eastern edge? You do imply at one point that the centre of the storm moved out over the sea, but nothing is mentioned about the effects of this storm on shipping. Do the sources say anything? Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The storm's effects at sea were probably nothing to write home about, limited to moderate rain and perhaps some choppy waters. Nothing seems to be available on shipping issues. Juliancolton (talk) 20:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, though I see some other nor'easters have caused shipwrecks. Wanted to be sure this hadn't happened here. Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "The storm moved slowly northeastward over the next 24 hours" - is this still the 27th or is this now the 28th
 * Should be more clear now that I've tweaked the preceding stuff. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You switch between using the words "storm" and "cyclone" - this could easily confuse some readers unless you make clear the distinction and that they are the same object at different intensities (or whatever).
 * Storm and cyclone are pretty much synonymous. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * To some people, a cyclone is a hurricane. No, really. Maybe add a note somewhere that "cyclone" in this article refers to cyclonic storm systems, not to tropical cyclones? Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I linked cyclone, which is a broad term for any low pressure system. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "The cyclone was rated by Kocin and Uccellini" - maybe add "meteorological researchers" before the names?
 * Sounds good. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You give Kocin and Uccellini year in the text as 2004, but are silent on when "more recent" is in the next sentence. This phrase ("more recent") will date badly as well, unless you explicitly say the year that the "more recent" data was published or analyzed.
 * I'm honestly not sure. The website with said recent data is obviously dynamic, and updates constantly with new storm system ratings, but I have no idea when they rated the '69 storm – except that it was since 2004. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm. It's a problem, then. You still need a date. In five years time it will look silly. Carcharoth (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a dynamic list, constantly updated since its inception after the book was published in 2004. Five years is a long time... if Wikipedia is still around then, it can be changed quite easily. Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "The storm left some communities without power or telephone service for up to two days" - the impact section is very good, but can you be more precise on which two days you are referring to here?
 * Two days after the respective communities lost power and telephone service... I don't think there's much else to say about it. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Is there no way to end the article with something like "normal services had resumed in most of the affected area by XXXX" and give a date for that?
 * I think I give a general feel for when certain aspects of recovery were completed, like, for example, the two days mentioned directly above. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * In general, I'm uncomfortable with all the units being in shorthand. I much prefer to see them written out in full the first time they appear, and then in shorthand thereafter.
 * Got this I think. Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Overall I enjoyed the article, and the link to the photo was good. Not enough people do that, though I was hoping for more than just one photo! I was going to ask if there were any satellite pictures, but it might be a bit early for that. Carcharoth (talk) 12:02, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the very detailed review. Yeah, pictures are kinda hard to come by for an old and somewhat obscure weather event, but I think the maps do a good job of illustrating it. I could ask around to see if I can get any satellite imagery from the ATS-3 sat. archives. Regards, Juliancolton (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * In the first few sentences of the main article, would it not be simpler to say: "'Both the December 1969 nor'easter and two severe storms from the previous year, are considered part of the long-term El Niño trend that brought increasingly severe winter weather to the Northeast United States. During the general time frame of the December 1969 nor'easter, North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) values ranged from neutral to negative, trending more consistently negative in the days surrounding its genesis.'" Or does that miss the point you are trying to make there? Carcharoth (talk) 03:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not really accurate, since the storms aren't part of the ENSO period, they're a product of it (although it might lean more toward correlation than causation). Juliancolton (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it possible that other readers will misunderstand this point, like it seems I have? If so, maybe try and rephrase to make clear what you are saying, or make clearer the connection between the source and what is said in the article. For example, you currently cite the phrase "two significant storms in the Northeast United States" to a list of the worst NESIS storms, but leave the reader to try and work out for themselves that you are (possibly) referring to the storms of 8-10 February 1969 and 22-28 February 1969. Incidentally, linking February 1969 nor'easter should be possible around here. And thinking on this some more, given the political fallout from the February storm, did this give rise to a better response to the December storm? Hopefully some sources will have covered that angle. You could also add this article to Template:United States Blizzards, and consider putting that template on this article (it is interesting looking to see which of those storms are nor'easters). Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Re the Lindsay Storm, the December nor'easter and the early February nor'easter affected two different areas, so they're apples and oranges so to speak. Also, it is unknown and unlikely that the December storm met the criteria for a blizzard, so I can't see adding it to the template (or adding the template to it!). I'm not sure where your concern over the storms of the 68–69 winter comes from. I assume readers can count backwards one year and determine which season they occurred in. Juliancolton (talk) 20:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If the storms affected two different areas, why do you indirectly mention the Lindsay storm in the lead (it is one of the two storms mentioned in this phrase, isn't it? previous winter, which produced two significant storms in the Northeast United States")? I accept your point about the blizzard template (I had misunderstood the difference between a blizzard and a snowstorm). Maybe a template on nor'easters (though I actually much prefer categories to templates)? I'm still not convinced that the bare citation to the list alone is enough here. I would suggest something like: "'Trends and changes occurred in the major weather oscillation systems both west and east of the United States in the period before and during the December 1969 nor'easter. To the west, the effects of the continuing long-term El Niño had been felt the previous winter (1968-1969), which had produced two significant storms in the Northeast United States, both also included in the NESIS scale. These previous storms were the storm of 8-10 February 1969 and the Lindsay storm of 22-28 February 1969. To the east, North Atlantic Oscillation values ranged from neutral to negative during the general time frame of the December 1969 nor'easter, trending more consistently negative in the days surrounding its genesis.'" The changes are to set the weather oscillation systems in geographical context (west and east) and explicitly name the two previous storms mentioned indirectly in the text, and to link to the one we have an article on. Is there a reason why this would not be desirable? I see above that you said to Hurricanehink that "The effects of NAO are still being debated in meteorology circles" - this makes me worry that you are adding something here that is not completely certain. Do Kocin and Uccellini specifically make the ENSO and NAO connection? Could you not directly quote what they say? Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, should have been more clear. All three storms impacted the same general region (as all NESIS storms do – hence the name "Northeast Snowfall Impact Scale", but the brunt of the December 1969 hit Albany, while the Lindsay Storm was worst in NYC. A 75 mile/120km difference. I fear that geographically generalizing the ENSO and NAO as "west" and "east" of the US, respectively, is oversimplification. Kocin and Uccellini don't make an explicit connection between these two patterns and the storm, but, as with every listing in the book, they provide the info for background context that can be used by researchers looking for potential correlations. I've split the first paragraph into its own background section to perhaps clarify that it's meant more as a bit of climatological context than a direct aspect of the storm's genesis. What do you think? Juliancolton (talk) 00:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That looks good. I do think it would help the reader to be eased gently into the background bit, with a mention of large-scale oscillations before you mention ENSO and NAO, and I do still worry that you need to make clearer that you are citing background context provided by Kocin and Uccellini, rather than a direct correlation they have made. As Hurricanehink's point above seemed never to have been fully addressed, maybe ask him about this? I'm happy to let other comment on this aspect now. Carcharoth (talk) 00:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Another point that struck me is that the size of this storm (geographically) is still unclear. How far outwards from the "centre" did the effects of the storm reach? If possible, this should be described in terms of absolute size (in kilometres) rather than just giving points of US geography that non-US readers may not be familiar with. Did the snowfall extend outwards for 10s of kilometres? 100s of kilometres? 1000s of kilometres? How far out into the ocean did the rainfall extend? The picture at File:GreatBlizzardof2006.jpg gives a good idea of the size that a nor'easter can attain. Would this storm have been of a comparable size? If the sources are silent on this, can you say what the extreme points are at the point of peak intensity? Carcharoth (talk) 08:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no idea, honestly. I could make a guess, but of course that would be OR. I'd also be very hardpressed to find extreme points, since data over the open Atlantic is minimal to non-existent, and the storm's effects likely extended beyond the US/Canada border where most documentation ends. A satellite picture would indeed be helpful, but again, that luxury simply doesn't exist. At the very least, the surface maps give a good indication of where the precipitation (shaded in gray) covered. Juliancolton (talk) 20:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I accept your point that you can't say too much here. It might help to say that the grey areas show precipitation (this is something I hadn't realised, and I'm not sure readers should have to skim the surface weather analysis article to find this out). Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Another point about dynamically updated meteorology sources becomes apparent when you compare List of NESIS storms and the current list. In the Wikipedia list, it is "16. December 25–27, 1969; 5.19; 3; Major", but in the current website listing it is "9. 25-28 December 1969; 6.29; 4; Crippling". I was going to suggest that you give the NESIS value/ranking, along with the numbers from the formula used to calculate it, but that may not be wise if this is dynamically updated. Maybe give the current figures "as of 2011" and say in the reference "the latest NESIS value and category for this storm can be viewed at ... which is dynamically updated as the latest figures are published/obtained/modified based on the most recent research"? If indeed that is what is going on here. You could also say that the NESIS value is a measure of area and population affected, which leads me to ask whether it is possible to dig a bit deeper and quote figures for area and population affected by this storm? It just struck me as a bit strange that this is a storm that has been assessed for the NESIS scale, but you don't mention NESIS at all, except in "see also". If there is a reason for this, fair enough, but I think it is a question that needs asking. Carcharoth (talk) 09:27, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't read through your other concerns as of yet, but I'm just going to point out that I mention the NESIS scale in the second sentence of the article. Juliancolton (talk) 13:36, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * To further clarify, see the footnote in the NESIS list: "In the event that information from these two sources [NCDC and the book] is inconsistent, data from Kocin and Uccellini (2004) is used." In this specific article, however, I've chosen to include both ratings in the interest of fairness. Juliancolton (talk) 20:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see now. I apologise for incorrectly stating above that you hadn't mentioned this is a NESIS storm. I had made the error of searching for "NESIS" (the initialism) rather than the full name, and not looking closely enough in the article. I should have realised it was unlikely that this had been missed out! About dynamically updating sources, would you consider raising this at a relevant WikiProject or other location for discussion? Overall, I'm going to strike this objection, but is there a reason you don't quote the NESIS values, seeing as they are from a formula that relate population affected and area affected - and are those figures (area and population) available to cite? Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * One point that I am bringing out here in a new bullet point is that the general feel I get as a reader who has a basic (secondary/high school-level) knowledge of meteorology, is that the basic meteorology is not explained enough within the article. There is too much linking out to other articles when in-article explanation would be better. There has to be a balance, but currently I think the balance goes too far towards linking terms and some readers may spend more time clicking and reading other articles than reading this one. For example, I can tell from reading the article that this is not a hurricane, but is an "intense winter storm", but I'm trying to mentally place it with the other weather terms I know, such as 'gale' and 'blizzard'. Would it be correct to apply these terms to at least parts of the storm? You mention gale-force winds, but snowstorm (rather than blizzard) is not mentioned in the lead but is mentioned a lot later on. It would probably help if you linked to nor'easter - I read that article and it explained a lot, but it was not linked from here (I'm aware that linking from within the bold bit is discouraged, but there are plenty of opportunities to link nor'easter somewhere useful in the lead). If I had had a link to follow to that article, it might have avoided some of the questions asked here! Carcharoth (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I found a way to link the nor'easter article in the first sentence. Are there any other outstanding specific examples of things you think need to be explained in-text? Juliancolton (talk) 20:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Now that nor'easter is linked, I am happy (though see summary of unresolved bits below), but I do think you need to not characterize minor in-text explanatory prose (which can be worked in so as not to disrupt the flow of an article) as spoon-feeding people. When Wikipedia editors work for a long time in a particular topic area, it can be easy for them to become so familiar with the basic concepts in that area, that they over-estimate what the lay-knowledge of an area is among the general public, and are happy to just link off to other articles instead. I know you aren't particularly receptive to that point of criticism, but if you could consider it and see how other articles are written, that might help you see what level I'm suggesting you pitch the article at. I should actually ask you which level you are pitching the article at? One level below professional meteorologist (e.g. postgrad), or one level above high-school graduate (e.g. university student), or somewhere in-between? Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I appreciate I'm often oblivious to overly technical terminology in my writings, so I really appreciate that you've stuck with the FAC all along to help me compensate for it. It's a bit overwhelming when I'm pointed to the potential for confusion, and I'm often not sure how to address it. In any case, I think I'm aiming for somewhere in the middle, where a basic understanding of the weather (ie. the difference between a low pressure area and a high pressure area) is needed. Juliancolton (talk) 00:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for explaining that. I find it helps to look at other articles and see what level they are pitched at, and try and get articles to generally fit within a simple to complex gradient, rather than be very different from similar articles. Carcharoth (talk) 00:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Check out what I did with the maps. Juliancolton (talk) 20:58, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Thanks for doing that. Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Summary (of unresolved bits raised by me above)
 * The low-level jet link, which as I pointed out is effectively an undisambiguated link.
 * Take a look at my in-text clarification. Juliancolton (talk) 00:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Perfect. Carcharoth (talk) 00:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The second two are not strictly speaking actionable, but I think the first two are (or should be otherwise addressed or a reason given for not making changes). After that, I should be ready to support or not (am unlikely to oppose). Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The wording of the opening sentences in the main body of the article.
 * The dynamically updating sources - would be happier if this was brought up in a wider discussion.
 * General level at which article is pitched - again, would be happier if this was brought up in a wider discussion.


 * Support - following review and discussion above, am now happy to support. Carcharoth (talk) 00:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the support and extensive help. I'll keep your points in mind for future reference, with both this article and any others I write. Once I have a bit more time, I'll definitely look into initiating project-wide discussions about article complexity the the dynamic sources. Juliancolton (talk) 00:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.