Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Denbies/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 13:49, 27 June 2015.

Denbies

 * Nominator(s): Sagaciousphil, Eric Corbett 17:36, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Denbies is a large country estate in the southeast of England, named after the farmer John Denby who owned the land in the mid-16th century. It achieved some notoriety in the mid-18th century after it was purchased by Jonathan Tyers, the proprietor of the pleasure garden just outside London. For reasons that are unclear, Tyers decided to install a garden known as The Valley of the Shadow of Death, incorporating macabre artefacts such as two upturned stone coffins topped by human skulls, as a reminder that time is fleeting and that life is short. What remains of the estate is now the site of the largest vineyard in England, but that's another story. Eric  Corbett  17:36, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Support from Cassianto
The Valley of the Shadow of Death Denison family ownership Cubitt's new mansion Interior
 * Why are we using quotes for "labyrinth"? Who said this?
 * Because it's a direct quote from Brian Allen (1981), ref #11, which is cited at the end of the sentence. Eric   Corbett  18:43, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "It had a thatched roof and fake stonework panels to form smaller internal enclosures, every panel covered in verses..." → "It had a thatched roof and fake stonework panels which formed smaller internal enclosures. The panels featured verses reminding the reader of "the vanity, the shortness and insufficiency of human pleasures"? I think we may need to put up with the panels/panel repetition unless you can think of an alternative?
 * Changed to "It had a thatched roof and internal enclosures formed by fake stonework panels, each covered in verses ...". Eric   Corbett  18:43, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "admonishing us that Time is fleeting, and even the least portion of it to be employed in reflections on Eternity" -- who said this?
 * It's a direct quotation attributed to refs #15 and #16. Eric   Corbett  18:43, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "To a sloping desk in the centre of the temple was chained a copy of Edward Young's poem Night-Thoughts and Robert Blair's The Grave, bound in black leather." → "Chained to a sloping desk in the centre of the temple was a copy of Edward Young's poem Night-Thoughts and Robert Blair's The Grave, bound in black leather."
 * Done. Eric   Corbett  18:43, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "Denison had a son, William Joseph, and two daughters, Elizabeth and Anna Maria, from his second wife." → either "with" his second wife or "from" his second marriage, surely?
 * Good point, done. Eric   Corbett  18:43, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "Like his father, Denison junior was a banker and became a senior partner in his father's banking company..." → "Like his father, Denison junior was a banker who became a senior partner in his father's banking company..."?
 * Your version doesn't work, as it suggests that Denison junior's father also became a senior partner in his father's banking company, which he didn't. Eric   Corbett  18:46, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "Almost one hundred rooms made up the Italianate structure's three storeys, stretching across nine bays in a square formation." → "Almost one hundred rooms made up the Italianate structure's three storeys, and stretched across nine bays in a square formation."
 * I prefer the version as it stands. Eric   Corbett  18:43, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This section seems to repeat refs [32] and [33] quite a lot. Could these be trimmed down?
 * Done. Eric   Corbett  18:57, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "The remaining rooms on the basement level were workshops, wine cellars, parlours for the butler, housekeeper and other principle servants together with general storerooms." – "The remaining rooms on the basement level were... housekeeper and other principle servants"? Maybe "housekeeper and other principle servants quarters"?
 * I don't see anything wrong with the current version and I'm loath to suggest that parlours = quarters, as the latter implies sleeping quarters to me. Eric   Corbett  18:53, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * My point here was that the opening starts "The remaining rooms on the basement level were..." You list "workshops, wine cellars, [and] parlours for the butler" – all rooms. The "housekeeper and other principle servants" are not rooms, they are people.  It sounds odd, I think, because these are people and you say "rooms" in the opening line.    Cassianto Talk   21:32, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I've had a go at tweaking it very slightly? SagaciousPhil  - Chat 08:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, much better I think.  Cassianto Talk   09:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Grounds Decline and dispersal Nicely worked and very interesting. This is well researched, thoughtfully illustrated and comprehensive.  Cassianto Talk   00:22, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "These were maintained by thirteen gardeners under the jurisdiction of a head gardener." – gardeners/gardener repetition; suggest swapping gardener with head groundsman?
 * Replaced with "These were maintained by thirteen staff under the jurisdiction of a head gardener.". Eric   Corbett  19:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "that year Henry moved to the mansion house after his father decamped to London following the death of Henry's mother.[44] He inherited the title and extensive estate after the death of his father in 1917.[44] -- identical refs in close succession. Would one cover all?
 * It would. I think the first citation was only put in to make it easier to move sentences around while we were working on the article, now removed. Eric   Corbett  18:43, 25 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for taking the time to read through the article. Eric   Corbett
 * Thanks, Cass. SagaciousPhil  - Chat 21:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Support from Cas Liber
No deal-breakers prose-wise...I guess I would have said "alternately" instead of "alternatively" but that might be more of a minority affectation of mine and certainly a minor stylistic issue. I would have also de-quoted "labyrinth" and use the word "network" but concede an essence of intricacy might be lost. Anyway all else makes for a fine read. Cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:42, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Does the current "labyrinthine network" work better for you? Eric   Corbett  12:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's fine. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:12, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Denbies_when_owned_by_Denison_(cropped).jpg: when/where was this first published? The given date doesn't make sense
 * File:Denbies,_Tyers_and_Cubitt_mansions.jpeg: was this attributed in its original publication? What does the source say about its provenance? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking at these, . I think (hope) I've fixed the first one? I'm honestly not sure what to do with the Tyers and Cubitt mansions one. In the Fortesque book the image is simply attributed to Hermione Hobhouse., myself and had a discussion on my talk page and Tim kindly checked the 1971 Hobhouse book Thomas Cubitt: Master Builder where the photo (Plate 102) has no further provenance. As you've probably guessed I'm not as skilled as I should be about licenses, so could you advise me, please?  SagaciousPhil  - Chat 09:30, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I can vouch for Phil's appraisal of the Tyers and Cubitt mansions image; we discussed it, and Tim kindly found a copy of Hobhouse's book to check, but sadly there was no provenance. To be quite honest, I'm shocked at how few images I've been able to find. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 10:44, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The image of the two houses now in our article is, I confirm, the same as that in the Hobhouse book.  Tim riley  talk    11:29, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The first image is now fine. The second is the one mentioned at your talk as Plate 102, correct? If so, I would mention the Hobhouse source in the image description as well. That would give us a workaround of life+70 plus PD-1996 given the creation date and the pre-1978 publication. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:41, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks to everyone for being so patient with me in respect of the images. I've added the detail about the Hobhouse book to the second image, if you wouldn't mind checking if it's okay now, please ? SagaciousPhil  - Chat 16:09, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Still not quite right. The current tag, anon-1923, requires that the image was published before 1923 - but the earliest publication we know of was 1971. Unless we can find an earlier publication, my inclination would be to use PD-old-70, as given the creation date the photographer almost certainly died long enough ago for this to have been PD in the UK before the URAA date. The other option would be to use either PD-UK or PD-UK-unknown, but I don't think we're certain enough of the initial publication. If we knew it was published in the 1800s we'd have a lot more choices. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Nikkimaria, I've swapped to the PD-old-70. SagaciousPhil  - Chat 17:40, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Support Comments . I shall be supporting this, but a few prose quibbles first : Those are my small gleanings. –  Tim riley  talk    11:29, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Lead
 * "a more modest version" – of Osborne, rather than of the old house, which is what the wording says.
 * History
 * Really "momento mori" rather than "memento mori"? A misprint in the source article, I'm sure: see here.
 * "procul este projani" is quite definitely wrong. Reluctant as I am to revisit the Aeneid after fifty contented years without it, I have checked the phrase, and it is in fact "procul este, profani". See here, line 298.
 * Denison family ownership
 * one of the top-ten richest British businessmen – not sure why this is preferable to the more concise "one of the ten richest British businessmen".
 * Grounds
 * strongly refuted the suggestion – to refute is generally taken to mean to disprove: should this be "rebutted" or "denied"?
 * Cubitt's death and legacy
 * "2000 acres … was secured" – plural verb wanted?
 * Piping of titles: it seems eccentric to pipe the Lord in Lord Ashcombe but not the Sir in Sir George Gilbert Scott.
 * "Lord Ashcombe" appears three times in this section, and could advantageously be trimmed to "Ashcombe" on second and third mentions.
 * Decline and dispersal
 * costs were extortionate – I doubt if "extortionate" is the word you want:  the OED defines it as "Grossly excessive, exorbitant". I wonder if "prohibitive" or "unsustainable" might be the right word here?
 * was not fully destroyed and left filled with rubble – I think clarity requires a second "was" before "left".
 * Notes
 * Note d: the syntax goes off the rails at "his father was Thomas, 5th Lord, as being born 1712" – dropping the "as being" would do the trick.
 * Note g: the OED does not hyphenate "remarry"
 * Pictures
 * some alt text is missing, for the benefit of blind or partially sighted readers who use screen readers.
 * Thanks for taking a look,, it's much appreciated. I think I've changed/tweaked all of those now. SagaciousPhil  - Chat 16:12, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The alt-text could still do with adding, but that apart I'm now easily able to support, and gladly do so.  Tim riley  talk    19:34, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Tim. I'll have another go at tweaking the alt text later. SagaciousPhil  - Chat 05:56, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Comments from the Doctor
Reading through now, I had rather hoped Eric would have been unblocked by now.♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:27, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * So did I ... but I'll try my best in the meantime. SagaciousPhil  - Chat 08:40, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Lede
 * "The house he built appears to have been of little architectural significance" -according to whom?
 * I've clarified this in the relevant section rather than adding it to the lead. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * Do we have an article on Gothic landscaped gardens or not?
 * No, there isn't anything specific and other Gothic links don't appear to be relevant. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * " but the Gothic garden he developed in the grounds on the theme of death achieved some notoriety, despite being short-lived. " -some rough indication of timeline here might be useful.
 * I've tweaked the sentence slightly to include the year. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * "on three storeys" -is "on" or "in" preferable here? is usually good with those sorts of things!
 * I'd write "on" here, as you are kind enough to ask.  Tim riley  talk    12:31, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Tim; I'd stick with "on" as well. SagaciousPhil  - Chat 08:40, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you could probably merge the last two paragraphs and keep it to three.
 * I think you could elaborate a tad on the wine estate in the article body. I'd expect a paragraph or so summarising it. Another line on it could then be added to the lede.


 * History
 * Vauxhall Gardens -perhaps add "London's
 * link Dorking?
 * Done. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * "gives measurements recorded on 4 October 1764 as it being " -"it being"?
 * Changed to "the well". SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * Valley
 * "which it has been suggested" -another stray "it"
 * Removed. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * ""admonishing us that Time is fleeting, and even the least portion of it to be employed in reflections on Eternity";" -who said that?
 * Attributed. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * " but it may have been Soame Jenyns." -in the opinion of?
 * Attributed. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * Subsequent history
 * Seamere estate -a link here would be useful. If missing, I'll stub it!
 * Writing in 1830 topographer - add a comma after 1830
 * "Deepdene[26] " -why the citation mid sentence?
 * Moved to end of the sentence. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * "he even had his own bricks made," -do we know who made them?
 * Re-jigged and clarified. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * What is a "canted bay"?, a link to something would be good.
 * Linked to cant (architecture). SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * porte-cochère -something in brackets on what that is might be useful here
 * Elaborated slightly. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * "Nurseries were on the top storey beside the female servant accommodation." -that should go where you discuss the top floor before first floor.
 * Seems odd that you've mentioned nothing about the ground floor, like the hall, dining room, sitting room etc.
 * William Nesfield was commissioned to design the gardens -when?
 * "Cubitt covered the costs of building a siding on the north side of Dorking Town railway station,[41] which was initially used for trains delivering building materials required for the mansion's construction.[32]" -"covered the costs" looks strange here, I'd just say he was" responsible for building".
 * St Barnabus -link?
 * Done. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * "Like his father, Henry followed a political career, becoming Lord Lieutenant of Surrey in 1905;[47] that year Henry moved to the mansion house after his father decamped to London following the death of Henry's mother. He inherited the title and extensive estate after the death of his father in 1917." -I'd restructure slightly as "Like his father, Henry followed a political career, becoming Lord Lieutenant of Surrey in 1905. That year Henry moved to the mansion house after his father decamped to London following the death of Henry's mother, and he inherited the title and extensive estate after the death of his father in 1917."


 * Recent times
 * "When what remained of the estate was marketed in May 1984 the selling agents, Savills, described it as being about 635 acres (2.57 km2).[6" -Try "When what remained of the estate was marketed in May 1984, it was described by the selling agents Savills as being about 635 acres (2.57 km2)."
 * " centrally heated,"? -Is that right or should it be central heated?
 * I think it's correct; wouldn't it be either "centrally heated" or "central heating"? SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * There definitely needs to be a bit more on the wine estate I think.


 * Notes
 * "a storm" -I think it would be better to show Burn's Day Storm fully here
 * Done. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * "was designated Grade II*" =was designated a Grade II* listed building"
 * Done. SagaciousPhil  - Chat


 * Interior/architecture
 * Admittedly I generally prefer for the architecture and interior/grounds to have a section on its own and not be covered in the history. Would it be unreasonable to you and Eric to split it from the history?

Looks in good shape!♦ Dr. Blofeld  12:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reading through this,, it's much appreciated. I'll start tweaking/addressing them today. SagaciousPhil  - Chat 08:40, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Support You're quite welcome. Excellent work both of you, looks worthy for FA.♦ Dr. Blofeld  14:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Dr. Blofeld! SagaciousPhil  - Chat 15:03, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Note -- source review? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:12, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * FN1, 59: page? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting those,, I've added the page to FN1 and slightly tweaked 59 to point to the hard copy publication rather than the Telegraph.co.uk. SagaciousPhil  - Chat 09:18, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 13:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.