Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dick Cresswell/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 12:51, 5 December 2016.

Dick Cresswell

 * Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 13:20, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Been a couple of months since my last nom, let's hope I remember how it goes... Unusually among the subjects of my air force bios, Dick Cresswell was not an ace, nor did he achieve high rank, but he did manage to be in the right place at the right time to achieve several 'firsts' in RAAF history. His main claim to fame was commanding No. 77 Squadron three times, most notably during the Korean War, when he oversaw its conversion from Mustangs to Meteors, and so became the first man to command an RAAF jet squadron in combat. He also seems to have had a reputation as a bit of a cowboy, so perhaps it's no surprise that he once got himself into hot water for practising with his revolver in the vicinity of a fellow officer who was ticking him off... Tks to everyone who participated in the article's recent GA and MilHist A-Class reviews, and to all who comment here! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:20, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:39, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Tks Nikki! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:23, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Comments: Looks great. Very nice piece of work. Just a few quibbles. That's as far as the top of the Korean War section and I'm out of time; I'll revisit tomorrow hopefully. HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  17:53, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps link Air Member for Personnel? I'm not sure average reader would be familiar with the term. There is a specific article on the Australian post, but it's one sentence and a list of holders.
 * Yes, the Australian AMP page isn't much, but if I had to link anything I think it'd have to be that one -- shall I do that? If I ever get round to writing an article on the Australian Air Board I'd probably merge AMP with it and leave a redirect...
 * If you asked me, I'd add something about Australia/Commonwealth air forces to the article on the RAF AMP, then move the Australian article to "List of Air Members for Personnel (Australia)"; but that's out of scope for this FAC. --HJM
 * The business with his court-martial is very intriguing.
 * Was the informal nature typical of the time? (Obviously there was a war on and the RAAF was in its infancy so perhaps it was).
 * I wasn't aware that the court martial process sounded informal here -- is there any particular wording that suggests that?
 * It sounds like he turned up one day expecting to fly and suddenly found himself in front of a court-martial. --HJM
 * The way Odgers' bio puts it, that's just how it was... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:43, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Which is sort of my point! ;) Was that normal? It seems ... if not informal then ... abrupt? --HJM
 * It seems a bit unusual to me too but I really don't know how unusual in terms of air force courts-martial, Odgers doesn't comment on that specifically. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:24, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Do we know why the sentence was relatively mild? Or why an officer as senior as the AMP would get involved? Or why the sanction was effectively reversed?
 * Although the court martial is mentioned in several sources, only biographer Odgers goes into detail, and he doesn't comment on the severity or otherwise of the sentence. Lukis got involved because Cresswell went to him to resign. Re. the reversal, Odgers comments "Clearly, the RAAF was softening its attitude toward Dick", but this appears simply observation/opinion.
 * Cresswell questioned the decision through official channels, with the result that he retained the position of wing leader What was that all about? A spitting contest between two officers?
 * I figure Cresswell preferred the position of wing leader to squadron commander, given he'd already been squadron commander, but that's not stated outright. In any case, he asked the Dept of Air for clarification and the dept said he was to stay as wing leader, and Steege kept him as squadron CO, so Cresswell had two jobs for a while -- I felt this could be summarised as we have it in the article.
 * Okay, another question: what's the difference between a wing leader and a wing commander? --HJM
 * Wing commander is a rank, equivalent to lieutenant colonel, and wing leader is a position, like commanding officer or executive officer. It's actually quite difficult to find a definition of the position, even though it's frequently mentioned in sources -- Darwin Spitfires is the only one I know that spells it out, hence my using it here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:43, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I know it's a rank, but you have just above No. 81 Wing's new commanderemphasis mine (who is a group captain) giving instructions to a squadron leader, who is to be come the wing's leader. What does the leader do that the commander doesn't? --HJM
 * The terminology the air force uses for positions vs. ranks can be maddening, I grant you... ;-) To clarify first off, Steege wanted Cresswell to be a squadron commander (position) not squadron leader (rank) -- Cresswell had been a wing commander (rank) since Jan 44. As to the difference between the wing leader and the wing's commander, the wing leader has tactical control of the formation in the air, but the wing's commander is in charge of the formation over all (operationally and administratively). The implication is that Steege wanted to have tactical control of the wing in the air as well as overall command, but the source doesn't state that explicitly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:24, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Tks very much for stopping by, Harry -- look fwd to further comments. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:59, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll be back to do the second half of the article but it might take me a couple of days. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  17:10, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Resuming: And that's it. I struggled to find anything to criticise! HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  11:55, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * What were his duties as Director of Air Staff Policy?
 * Source doesn't elaborate, I'm afraid.
 * Do we know why he wasn't interested in climbing the ranks further?
 * His quote about his resignation in 1957 suggests he expected to be desk-bound if he stayed.
 * the RAAF Antarctic Flight impressed his Beaver it took me a moment to parse the intended meaning of "impressed" here ('pressed into service' vs 'made an impression') and I'm not sure it would be clear to everyone; I'd suggest linking to Wiktionary or rephrasing
 * Heh, fair enough -- tweaked.
 * Tks again Harry! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:24, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. I'm happy with your replies, so support. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  16:18, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Cheers, Harry. Ian Rose (talk) 11:20, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley
 * "the first RAAF commander of a jet squadron in war" You say this twice in the lead.
 * Heh, actually I repeat all three of the "firsts' from the lead para in the second para, the purpose being to put them in context having spelt them out initially to establish his notability -- if I did the other two more subtly, perhaps there's a way I can tweak the third similarly?
 * Presumably his mother was related to Geoffrey de Haviland, and I think it is worth spelling out his family connection with aviation.
 * Geoffrey isn't mentioned specifically, just the family/business, which I tried to established using the link.
 * I think the sources you mention justify mentioning that she was a relative of aviation pioneer Geoffrey de Haviland, and it would be helpful in explaining his interest in flying.
 * Again, while I'm sure she must've been some relation of Geoffrey's, I prefer not to state what isn't explicit in the source. The article does mention that Dick's interest in aviation was piqued by his mother's stories. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:35, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * 'Wing leader' seems a bit obscure. I could not find it in OED or wiktionary, but it is mentioned in Wikipedia on Wing Commander as being of the same rank. I see it is discussed above. A few words of explanation would be helpful - or maybe create a stub article explaining and link to it?
 * Do you mean in the lead, as it is defined at the relevant point in the main body?
 * I missed that. How about adding your explanation to Wing commander (rank), and then linking to it in the lead?
 * I'm not sure about adding this role info to a rank article, but I think I can put together a new, brief article specifically for wing leader that we could link to. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:35, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Following up, Harry and Dudley, I've put together a new article that should tell you most of what you wanted to know about wing leaders and weren't afraid to ask, linked it in the article and dropped the inline definition that I think sort of just sat there anyway. Tks for prompting me -- deliberately or not -- to do it, as it was probably overdue... :-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:04, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Great. I assume from what you say that wing leaders were not used in action after WW2 - e.g. in Korea? Dudley Miles (talk) 09:40, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * AFAIK the RAF had no squadrons in Korea, let alone wings, and though there was talk of forming 77 Sqn RAAF and 2 Sqn SAAF into a Commonwealth Mustang wing, it never happened. The RAF had several combat squadrons in the Far East during the Malayan Emergency and after, and some might have formed wings but it doesn't necessily mean they had wing leaders, unless they contemplated throwing entire wings into combat there, which seems a bit unlikely to me. That they had wing leaders in Britain and Germany in the 1950s suggests that they did indeed contemplate throwing entire wings into the air in Europe if the balloon went up...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:21, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * "The wing flew 1,125 sorties in October and November, dropping over 400,000 pounds" - bombing Japanese ships and/or army in New Guinea?
 * Fair enough, should be able to expand that.
 * " In an unusual move, the RAAF did not raise him to wing commander" Is it known why? Because he had made enemies?
 * No-one elaborates -- the implication, as you might glean from the Stephens quote re. his DFC, is he had some enemies but nothing explicit re. this situation, just that it was a curious decision.
 * "The communist advance" I would prefer Communist with a capital C. Is there a rule on this?
 * Been a while since I've seen it brought up so not sure if there's a guideline, nor do I have a strong preference, so would tend to use what most of the sources do. In this case, checking again, Alan Stephens and Steve Eather use lower case, and Robert O'Neill, George Odgers and Doug Hurst capitalise it, so I guess the "cappers" have it!
 * That's it. A fine article. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, Dudley. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:29, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Support. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:49, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks Dudley! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:35, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt
Won't get back to this for a few hours, but to get started,
 * "In this capacity," I would omit. I'm not sure what it adds, and it isn't very clear what capacity.  Commander?  He was acting as pilot when he shot down the plane.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:29, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was trying to say was that he was commanding the squadron when he achieved the first "first", as well as the subsequent ones, but I guess it's not that important.
 * Resuming ...
 * "Manly West" as Manly is the only Sydney-area location (that is, Manly) that non-Australians might have heard of on the list (other than Sydney), it might be worth a link. I note the only Manly West article is to a place in Queensland.
 * Heh, that was an annoying one for me... Manly West sounds like a suburb but isn't, it's just a locale in Balgowlah (not Manly, so that link doesn't help).
 * "on his first day of operations three days" I might try to separate the "days" a bit more.
 * Yeah, I didn't like that either, will try and think of something that's clear but not repetitive.
 * "No. 77 Squadron transferred from Iwakuni in Japan to Pohang, South Korea, on 12 October, to support UN troops advancing northwards from the Pusan Perimeter" I might ax the comma after "October".
 * Will do.
 * "Air Vice Marshal Scherger" I might remind the reader with something like "his onetime commander at Wagga Wagga" or similar.
 * Will do.
 * "during the developing crisis" I'm not sure what it adds. Surely we are not discussing the runup to war in June 1950?  I'd cut it.  I also might eliminate the "had" earlier in the sentence, if the source will allow.
 * No, not June 1950, we're referring to the Communist advance and Allied withdrawal in December, mentioned in the previous sentence.
 * " fitted to the Australian aircraft" if we are discussing the Meteors, this may be confusing as they were British-made. I might simply say, "fitted to them".
 * Agree, will trim.
 * "act as a MiG-15" I might say "simulate a ..."
 * Good idea, will do.
 * "Cresswell later recalled" does "later" add anything?
 * Not much, consider it gone.
 * Do we have a burial site, if he was?
 * None of my sources say, I'm afraid.
 * That's all. Very well done.  I look forward to supporting.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:15, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Tks very much for that, Wehwalt. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:37, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Actioned per my responses above, happy to discuss further. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:23, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Support Nice work.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:33, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Comments from The Bounder
Excellent article, and I struggled to find much to comment about. The following two things came to my eye for comment or consideration.

Lead
 * It looks odd linking the Korean War, but not the Second World War: any reason?
 * I tend to feel it's superfluous linking WWII as it's such a well-known and wide-ranging conflict, which I don't think you can say about Korea. I might be more inclined to link WWII if I mentioned it in an article that didn't also discuss/link some of the war's specific theatres, campaigns or battles. In any case I'd be prepared to defer to local consensus.

WWII
 * "He souvenired": is it really used as a verb? (I guess it must be, but it jars a little to my British eyes!
 * I have to admit it's a kind of shorthand I like (as opposed to "He took as a souvenir") but again if consensus is against it I'd reluctantly alter... :-)

– The Bounder (talk) 19:58, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time to review! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:13, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Support. As long as you've considered the points and are still happy with the, that's all fine with me - neither of them are deal breakers. Excellent article and I thank you for it. – The Bounder (talk) 07:12, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

-- Laser brain  (talk)  12:51, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.