Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dish-bearers and butlers in Anglo-Saxon England/archive1

Dish-bearers and butlers in Anglo-Saxon England

 * Nominator(s): Dudley Miles (talk) 12:54, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Dish-bearers and butlers were officers at Anglo-Saxon royal feasts. Dish-bearers are usually described as seneschals by historians, and commented that it was unclear what "seneschal" means in the Eadwig article, so I have created this article to explain. Bazza and have given helpful comments. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:54, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Image review
 * Don't use fixed px size. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:09, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nikki. I have known not do that for some time but I forgot. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:29, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Support by Unlimitedlead
Hi, Dudley Miles. Nice seeing you here. I have some feedback that I hope you will find useful: Unlimitedlead (talk) 13:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * "Feasts played an important role in consolidating community and hierarchy among the elite, and dish-bearers and butlers served the food and drinks.": the latter half of the sentence sounds awkward. Maybe try adding something like "at these functions" or "at these gatherings" at the end?
 * Added "at these meals". Dudley Miles (talk) 09:47, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * "...and Northumbrian thegns in the king's entourage got drunk.": I think "intoxicated" would be more appropriate language to use here. However, that's up to you.
 * I prefer "drunk". Dudley Miles (talk) 09:47, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * "...In the later Anglo-Saxon period, queens and æthelings...": Is there a link that would be appropriate for "queens"?
 * Done. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:47, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Is it possible to find perhaps just one more image for this article? There might be a miniature somewhere of a dish-bearer.
 * the nearest image to being relevant I can find is a 1902 statue of a dapifer to Henry I, and this seems stretching relevance too much. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:47, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for the review . Dudley Miles (talk) 09:47, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie

 * "Dish-bearers and butlers probably also carried out diverse military and administrative duties as required by the king, and some went on to have illustrious careers as ealdormen, but most never rose higher." Can we break this after "king", like so: "Dish-bearers and butlers probably also carried out diverse military and administrative duties as required by the king.  Some went on to have illustrious careers as ealdormen, but most never rose higher."?
 * Done. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "dish-bearers and cup-bearers (butlers) served at the table, playing a major role in helping to make them political successes": I think the syntax is a little imprecise here -- the subject of "playing" is "dish-bearers and cup-bearers" but it really should be the act of serving. How about "dish-bearers and cup-bearers (butlers) served at the table, a role which could play a major part in helping to make them political successes"?
 * I do not think your suggestion quite works either. See what you think of my amendment. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)


 * You use "biriele" in the "Status" section which is not one of the spellings given in the "Etymology" section.
 * Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "The butler and dish-bearer of Edith, wife of Edward the Confessor, remained with her when he died rather than moving to serve the new queen." Suggest "The butler and dish-bearer of Edith, wife of Edward the Confessor, remained with her when the king died rather than moving to serve the new queen."
 * Done. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

The article is concise and, as far as I can tell, thorough. Just these minor points. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:36, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:55, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Source review

 * You give the publisher and location for the online charters, but omit a location for the online OED and ODNB, and give neither for ASE 10.
 * Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

That's everything I can see to complain about -- sources are all reliable and the links all work. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:36, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for the review. All fixed I hope. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:55, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Support from Iazyges

 * "occupied the third lay rank in English society" laymen (ironically enough) may not understand the usage of lay here, perhaps "occupied the third rank of laymen (non-religious figure)"or something similar.
 * In the status section it does not indicate that the thegns were third in rank so clearly as the lede, but only by order of elimination, which seems odd. Perhaps "The offices were held by thegns, who were members of the aristocracy" could be modified to "The offices were held by thegns, who were members of the aristocracy and occupied the third rank of laymen" or something similar.
 * Article seems complete and very well put together for such a niche topic, and all of my suggestions are minor adjustments for readability. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  04:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your edits and comments . I have fixed both your points. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Excellent, happy to support. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  15:36, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild
Recusing to review.


 * "also called cup-bearers". By whom?
 * It is the dictionary definition. A pincerna is defined as a butler or cup-bearer. I originally had "butler or cup-bearer", but an editor objected that it was unclear whether I meant one office or two. Would "butler (or cup-bearer}" be better? Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I see their point. Yes, "butler (or cup-bearer}" would be better.
 * Done. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Perhaps link "lay" to Laity?
 * I think that would be confusing. The first definition given in the laity article is a lay member of an order, such as a lay brother. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "but most never rose higher." Than thegns or than ealdormen?
 * Added "than thegn". Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "several stigweard (subordinate officer". Should "officer" be plural?
 * Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "the king ordered that the mead should flow plentifully". Upper case K.
 * Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "showing that junior æthelings also had ..." What is it that makes Edmund a "junior ætheling", rather than just an ætheling?
 * I used the term to avoid repeating "younger brother". Would it be better to repeat? Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Ho hum. Perhaps "brothers of the king"? I think that "younger" will be understood, and even if not, is not strictly relevant.
 * Changed to "kings' younger sons". Younger is relevant as I am making the point that it was not only the eldest son who had a dish=bearer. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "a man had to own substantial land in one or more counties". What does "in one or more counties" add? If the land could be owned in a either a single county or several I am not sure what information is being communicated.
 * It is in the source and I take it to mean that thegns could be substantial local landowners or more important and wealthier magnates owning land in several counties. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If that is what you understand it mean it would be best to use that form of words. Which makes perfect sense to me, while the current phrase, frankly, doesn't.
 * Changed to "In order to be a thegn, a man had to at least be a substantial local landowner, and he could be a major magnate owning estates in several counties." It is a bit SYNTH as the source just says in one or more counties, but I don't think too much. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Would it be possible to briefly explain what an attestation was? Either in line or in a footnote.
 * Linked to Attestation clause. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I did wonder why you hadn't done that already.


 * "her when the king died". Upper case K.
 * Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "History" is fairly chunky. Would it be possible to break the paragraph?
 * Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "and promoted to ealdorman by his successor". Should that be 'and were promoted to ealdorman by his successor'?
 * Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 18:09, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Many thanks . Replies and queries above. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * A couple of responses. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:59, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 08:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)