Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Disneyland Railroad/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 19:48, 8 July 2017.

Disneyland Railroad

 * Nominator(s): Jackdude101 (talk) 04:49, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

This article is about the steam railroad attraction located in the original Disneyland theme park in Anaheim, California. The concept for the railroad was created by Walt Disney himself, who, besides being known for drawing cartoons, was also an avid railfan. The railroad opened on July 17, 1955, and since then it has become one of the busiest attractions of its kind on the planet with an estimated 6.6 million passengers served every year. I re-wrote the entire article earlier this year and after doing so, I successfully campaigned to get it upgraded to good article status. I feel that it satisfies the criteria to be upgraded further to featured article status, which, of course, will ultimately be decided by the reviewers. I look forward to reading your opinions and working together to make the Disneyland Railroad article a new piece of featured content on Wikipedia.  Jackdude 101  04:49, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Support Comments by Finetooth on prose and comprehensiveness

 * This is interesting, well-illustrated, and appears to be comprehensive. I have issues with the lede, as noted below. Most of my questions and suggestions have to do with the prose, which is generally fine but tends a bit too much toward constructions that are either unnecessarily passive or overly complex. Neither of these two sets of prose problems is hard to fix, and I've made several specific suggestions for improvement. I made a dozen or so minor edits as I went; please revert any you think are misguided.


 * General
 * Images need alt text.
 * I need clarification on what you mean by this. Each image has a description on their Wikimedia Commons page.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 20:35, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * There's a full explanation at WP:ALT. I added alt text just now to the Yoakum image so you can see what's involved. I write these by trying to imagine what a blind reader would need to hear from a screen reader that translates the alt text into sound. You will note an alt-text checker in the toolbox in the upper right-hand corner of this review page. If you click on it, you will see the alt text for the Yoakum image. You'll need to write alt text for all the others. The alt text doesn't show up as text on the article page itself but will appear if you roll over an image with your mouse. Hope this clarifies. Good luck writing these; the locomotive descriptions look a bit more difficult than the one I did. Finetooth (talk) 23:58, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Alt text has been added to every image in the article except the one in the infobox, due to error messages appearing when alt text is added to it.  Jackdude 101  03:59, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I had to squirrel around to figure this one out. Section 5, "Examples", of Template: Infobox has a solution. I've added an alt parameter to the infobox and filled in the alt text space with the word "something". I leave it to you to write the actual alt text to replace "something". Your other alt texts seem fine. Finetooth (talk) 15:02, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I would recommend moving either the map or the image across from it to eliminate the text sandwich in Planning and construction. I'd probably move the image down and leave the map where it is.
 * Umm. That eliminates the text sandwich from Planning and construction but creates a new one in Attraction concept origins. Something I didn't think to mention before is that it's better, when possible, to have directional images looking into the page rather than out. Since Locomotive No. 173 is currently running out of the page, I wonder if moving it to where you have now placed the map and moving the map back down into Planning and construction might be a solution. You'd have to position the map so that it is not right across from the passenger cars. It looks to me like there's enough room to do that without making a sandwich of text squeezed between images on the left and right. Finetooth (talk) 16:45, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I moved the map/route diagram a tiny bit further down and there is no text sandwich now, at least with the screen dimensions I have. I would like to keep the route diagram as close as possible to the infobox, which is standard practice for similar railroad articles.  Jackdude 101  18:41, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * OK. Finetooth (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Lede
 * A good deal of what appears in this lede does not seem to appear in the main text. Examples are the length of the route, the current number of trains and their travel times, the info about the A, B, C, and D tickets, and the info about the temporary closure. What I'm reading here is a kind of intro rather than a summary of the main text. To fix this, you need to make sure that the main text includes the info summarized in the lede. After that, the citations embedded in the lede can go away and instead be embedded in the main text. My guess is that most of the data (track length, ticket guidelines, temp closure) belongs in the Ride experience section, which tells us what to expect if we go to Disneyland in 2017 and ride the train.
 * ¶2 "such as the conversion of one of its train cars into a parlor car in the mid-1970s, and switching from diesel oil to cleaner-burning biodiesel to fuel its locomotives in the late 2000s." – How about "the switch to" to make the construction parallel to "the conversion of"?
 * ¶3 "until the use of all ride tickets were discontinued..." – Trim by four words to "until ride tickets were discontinued"?


 * Attraction concept origins
 * ¶1 "As a young boy, he had a desire to become..." – Tighten by three words to "As a young boy, he wanted to become..."?
 * ¶1 "he obtained a job as a news butcher... " – Can "news butcher" be linked to something? I'm not sure of its meaning except in the context of this article. ❌
 * I attempted to find a Wikipedia article to link to this, but no such article exists. The description in that sentence of what Disney did in that job summarizes what a news butcher is.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 20:50, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find one either, nor is there one in Wiktionary. The meaning is pretty clear from context, but if other editors ask this same question, you might consider adding a footnote. Here is an RS for a definition: news butcher. Finetooth (talk) 16:28, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ¶1 "Many years later, after co-founding the Walt Disney Company with his older brother Roy O. Disney, he started playing polo, but after receiving several injuries including fractured vertebrae, his doctor made a recommendation that he pursue a calmer recreational activity." – Since the doctor didn't receive the injuries, please recast. Perhaps "Many years later, after co-founding the Walt Disney Company with his older brother Roy O. Disney, he started playing polo. Fractured vertebrae and other injuries led him to abandon the sport on the advice of his doctor, who recommended a calmer recreational activity." Or something like that.
 * ¶3 "During this time, Disney proposed that the narrow gauge Crystal Springs & Southwestern Railroad, which the nearby Travel Town Museum in Griffith Park was planning to build, be extended to run through Disneyland; however, due to the Ventura Freeway planned to be constructed between the two sites, and the Burbank City Council rejecting the idea of a new amusement park in their city, Disney had to look elsewhere for a suitable place to build Disneyland and its narrow gauge railroad. – Too complex. Maybe "During this time, Disney proposed that the narrow gauge Crystal Springs & Southwestern Railroad, which the nearby Travel Town Museum in Griffith Park planned to build, be extended to run through Disneyland. However, planned construction of the Ventura Freeway across land between the two sites and rejection by the Burbank City Council of a new amusement park in their city, led Disney to look elsewhere." Or something like that.


 * Planning and construction
 * ¶1 "referred to by Disneyland employees as Retlaw 1" – This is Walter spelled backwards, but it takes a while to figure that out. Perhaps the article should explain this directly in the text or in a note.
 * ¶2 "an attempt was made by Walt Disney to purchase a set..." – Flip to active voice and tighten: "Walt Disney tried to buy a set..."?
 * ¶2 "the steam locomotives planned to be built for the DRR" – Tighten by three words: "the steam locomotives planned for the DRR"?
 * ¶3 "While the train cars and most of the parts for the locomotives were built at Walt Disney Studios, the boilers for the locomotives were built by Dixon Boiler Works and their frames were built by Wilmington Iron Works." – Flip to active voice: "While Walt Disney Studios built the train cars and most of the parts for the locomotives, Dixon Boiler Works built the locomotive boilers, and Wilmington Iron Works built the frames."?
 * ¶3 "Both locomotives were designed to run on diesel oil for fuel to generate steam." – Tighten by two words by deleting "for fuel"?
 * ¶3 "US$240,000" – No need to specify U.S. dollars in a U.S.-based article.
 * ¶4 "to make it appear to be taller" – Trim by two words: "to make it appear taller"?
 * ¶5 "The track layout and operations for the DRR were created by railroad-building expert Earl Vilmer..." –Flip to active voice: "Railroad-building expert Earl Vilmer created the track layout and operations for the DRR..."? Maybe end the sentence there, and start a new one with "Broggie hired Vilmer because of his experience building railroads... ".
 * ¶5 "On July 17, 1955, Disneyland and the Disneyland Railroad opened, and the day began with Walt Disney pulling the DRR's No. 2 locomotive and its passenger train...". – To avoid the comic idea of Disney physically pulling the train, maybe "driving" rather than "pulling"?


 * Additions in the late 1950s
 * Please eliminate the unnecessary US before "$" instances from this section.
 * ¶3 "...with its final cost after being restored totaling over US$37,000." – More succinct would be "at a cost after restoration of more than $37,000."
 * ¶5 "The addition of the Grand Canyon Diorama in 1958 prompted changes to the Retlaw 2 freight train pulled by the DRR's No. 1 locomotive, which involved adding side-facing bench seating pointed towards Disneyland and red-and-white striped awnings on all of the cattle cars and gondolas, as well as removing the walls on the cattle cars facing towards the park, allowing for better views of the diorama.[65] That same year, a third gondola with the same modifications as the other gondolas was added, and a fourth gondola with the same attributes was added in 1959, bringing the total number of freight cars in the train set, now referred to by Disneyland employees as Holiday Red, to eight.– Both of these sentences seem to me to be overly complicated. An easy fix for these and others like it is to split them, which is what I would recommend here. The new first sentence could end with "gondola." The second sentence could be "The walls on the cattle cars facing the park were removed to allow better views of the diorama." The third sentence could end with "1959". The fourth sentence could say "This brought the total number of freight cars...".
 * ¶5 "...Walt Disney had insisted that there be no seats on them for the purpose of authenticity and to make the passengers feel like cattle riding on an actual cattle train." – Slightly confusing. Perhaps "...Walt Disney, for the purpose of authenticity, had insisted that there be no seats on them; he wanted the passengers to feel like cattle on an actual cattle train."
 * ¶6 "Also in 1958..." – No need for "Also."
 * ¶7 "After Walt Disney concurred with the decision...". – For more concise prose, delete "with the decision"?
 * ¶7 "with its final cost after being restored totaling over US$57,000." – More succinct would be "at a cost after restoration of more than $57,000."


 * Changes from the 1960s to present
 * Trim subhead to "Changes since 1960"?
 * ¶1 "Despite the fact that the station was no longer in the Frontierland section...". – Suggestion: "Although" instead of four words, "Despite the fact that".
 * ¶2 "In 1996, the five other Retlaw 1 passenger cars were acquired by rail collector Bill Norred." – Flip to active voice; i.e., "In 1996, rail collector Bill Norred acquired the five other Retlaw 1 passenger cars."
 * ¶3 "In spring 1966, a five-gondola train set with green-and-white-striped awnings and a five-gondola train set with blue-and-white-striped awnings, referred to by Disneyland employees as Holiday Green and Holiday Blue respectively, were added to the DRR's rolling stock, with both containing side-facing bench seating like the Holiday Red freight train." – Split this too-complicated sentence by ending with "rolling stock. Both had side-facing bench seats like the Holiday Red freight train."?
 * ¶6 "After arriving in Disneyland, the Maud L. locomotive, which would later be renamed Ward Kimball like the locomotive for which it was traded, was given a new cab built by Disney and a new boiler built by Hercules Power, which was subcontracted by Superior Boiler Works; however, due to budget issues, the restoration of the locomotive was suspended not long after its arrival and its parts were planned to be placed in long-term storage in late 2003." – Another overly complicated sentence. Suggestion: Split.
 * ¶7 "an exceptionally unusual event" – I'd use either "exceptional" or "unusual" but not both.
 * ¶7 "The steam train was previously owned by Johnston, who used to run it on his vacation property, which he sold, along with the train, in 1993." –Flip to active voice; i.e., "Johnston, a previous owner of the steam train, used to run it on his vacation property, which he sold, along with the train, in 1993."


 * Ride experience
 * ¶1 "Each train is operated by an engineer and fireman in the locomotive, as well as a conductor in the front and back of the train who supervise the passengers." – "A conductor" doesn't match the plural verb "supervises". For this reason, recast as "An engineer accompanied by a fireman operates the locomotive, while conductors at each end of the train supervise the passengers."?
 * ¶2 "can be heard emanating from the old Frontierland Station depot building, which continuously repeats the first two lines..." – The building doesn't repeat anything, but the "sound effect" does. You can fix this by splitting the sentence, which is overly complicated. The first part can end after "building". The second can say "The sound effect continuously repeats the first two lines of Walt Disney's 1955 Disneyland dedication speech."
 * ¶6 "no heavy rain is present." – "Falling" rather than "present"?


 * Incidents
 * "During early 2004 at Tomorrowland Station, an explosion in the DRR's No. 3 locomotive took place caused by accumulated diesel fumes in the firebox after its fire suddenly went out." – Maybe "At Tomorrowland Station in early 2004, accumulated diesel fumes in the firebox of DRR's No. 3 locomotive exploded after the fire suddenly went out."?
 * This is all I have for now. Finetooth (talk) 20:17, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Your recommendations to the article have been implemented. Let me know what you think.  Jackdude 101  03:59, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Switching to support, as noted above. The article is an enjoyable read on a topic more complicated than I would have imagined before reading this. Finetooth (talk) 23:53, 26 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Image review
 * File:Disneyland Railroad Poster.png: I would just say "identify" but otherwise fine.
 * File:Locomotive cp 173.jpg: Assuming that the photographer didn't take the photo at young-ish age and didn't live too long that should be fine, but it'd be nice to have an idea. Use is OK.
 * File:Oahu Railway and Land Company equipment at Travel Town.jpg: License and use seem fine.
 * File:DelmerJYoakumGrandCanyonDisneyland.jpg and File:DisneylandTrainLocomotive.jpg: I am concerned that this is a recent enough upload to possibly merit OTRS proof of license, and the uploader is long inactive...
 * File:Lilly Belle (28099523610).jpg, File:New Orleans Square Water Tower (27701863704).jpg, File:Disneyland-MainStreetstation.jpg, File:Disneyland-Frontierlandstation.jpg, File:Disneyland-ToonTownstation.jpg and File:Disneyland-TomorrowlandDepot.jpg: License and use OK, I don't think there are derivative work issues here.
 * File:Wikipedia DRR Steam Engine - IMG 1744.jpg: License and use seem fine, lack of EXIF aside.
 * File:DRR - C.K. Holliday.jpg, File:DRR - Caboose.jpg and File:DRR - Fred Gurley.jpg: Use is OK, but I am not certain if the license given in Facebook is broad enough.
 * File:DRR 4 Ernest S.Marsh.jpg: License and use seem fine.
 * File:Disneyland 200707 Number5 NewOrleansSquare.jpg: License and use seem fine.
 * File:Disneyland locomotive 2 at Main Street Station 1960.JPG: Assuming that it's a standalone image, license and use seem OK.
 * ALT text is good everywhere. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:43, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking the time to review this article's images. Are there any actions that need to be taken on my part with any of these images? Is the Grand Canyon mural image the only significant concern you have that you feel would prevent this article from reaching FA status? If so, there are some alternative images of that mural with compatible licenses on Flikr from which I can choose to replace it.  Jackdude 101  23:14, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * In my mind, the train images from Facebook are a bigger issue - we do not want "for Wikipedia only" images. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:45, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The Grand Canyon image and the three images from Facebook have been replaced in the article by different images from Flikr with compatible licenses. Is there anything else that you would like me to address?  Jackdude 101  17:52, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
 * How old is that diorama? It could have derivative work issues. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:12, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That diorama is 59 years old this year. I replaced that image with an image of an aerial view of Disneyland in 1956 in the public domain.  Jackdude 101  20:40, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Are all of the outstanding issues with the images now resolved to your satisfaction?  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 19:59, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * File:DisneylandTrainLocomotive.jpg needs source information. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:18, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I replaced that image in the article with this image: File:Disneyland Railroad EP Ripley a.jpg. It's from Flikr and has a valid license.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 20:48, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Does that resolve everything?  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 23:36, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:15, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Source review—no issues with reliability of sources. Turning to formatting, a few points stand out: It's all just a matter of polishing the formatting before promotion of the article.  Imzadi 1979  →   21:50, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The footnotes use the CS1 style, while the bibliography uses the CS2 style. They should not be mixed in the same article. The key tell is that CS2 separates elements of the citation by commas, not periods, doesn't capitalize words like "archived" or "retrieved" and omits a terminal period. The CS1 templates do work with the Harvard-style referencing you're using if you include harv in each one, so you could switch the bibliography over to match that style instead of redoing all of the other footnotes. (You might also want to consider using harvp instead of harvnb since it will put the date in parentheses; a simple find all/change all operation in the edit window would flip them all.)
 * The footnotes should be updated to correct a formatting error. Take n. 74. The specific article within that newsletter should be cited in quotation marks, the date should be separated out, the name of the newsletter should be in italics, and the publisher should be in roman (plain) text. As it stands, the article title is left out, the date is combined with the newsletter name in quotations marks, and the publisher is in italics. You also have not credited the author of the article either!
 * In other footnotes, I see what should be a publisher name in italics; BBC and AOL are companies, not the names of published works, for instance. All of the publishers in the bibliography have been improperly italicized as well. (Traditionally, the place publication is also given for books.)
 * Per MOS:CAPS, all caps in titles should be reduced to the same style of capitalization used in article titles. For consistency, you should convert all of your article titles to either Sentence case or Title Case. In the former, only the first word and proper names are capitalized, while in the latter, the first, last and major words are capitalized. Such a minimal change is standard in publishing and advocated by major style guides.
 * All fixes implemented.  Jackdude 101  02:07, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Does the formatting of the sources in the article now meet your expectations?  Jackdude 101  03:15, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Just tossing out this idea to see what you think. If we take a page from The Chicago Manual of Style and how it handles footnotes, you could run the full citation on the very first usage in a footnote, and then shorten it on the subsequent ones. So, n. 3 could have the full Brogie citation (with the "p. 131" given) including harv, and then n. 4 would use the harvnb/harvp template to link back to the full citation in n. 3. Just a thought to allow you to merge the two sections together.  Imzadi 1979  →   21:54, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It all looks good, however, I had to fix something. The Orange County Register is the name of a newspaper, and it should be in italics. Ditto Mental Floss and Wired as names of magazines. If a website has a name independent of its publisher, then the website name gets italicized as well. I've fixed those for you, so the citations all look ready to me.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:36, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

This is the only thing that I noticed after reading through the article. Once this is addressed, I will be more than happy to support this. Aoba47 (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Comments from Aoba47
 * Please link "Walt Disney" in the first sentence of the "Attraction concept origins" subsection as that is the first time that you have mentioned him in the body of the article.
 * Action completed.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 18:57, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for addressing my comment. I support this. If possible, I would greatly appreciate any feedback on my current FAC? I understand if you do not have the time or energy to look at it though; hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Good luck with this nomination. Aoba47 (talk) 19:06, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Other than that, the article looks fine to me. Ping me when you have fixed these issues and I'll support it. Also, if you have free time I would appreciate if you could comment in Featured article candidates/Naruto/archive3. Regards.
 * Comments from Tintor2 (talk) 19:54, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The citations in the lead have to be removed unless you are commenting controversial information. See Manual of Style/Lead section.
 * The sentence "The table below lists the details of the DRR's train cars." contains a lot of references. Is it possible to reduce them?
 * Try to avoid small paragraphs.
 * The references are now removed from the lead section. One reference was removed from the "The table below lists the details of the DRR's train cars" sentence (unlike the locomotive data, which have concise tables with all of the relevant data included in multiple sources, the train cars data is a bit scattered with no single reference providing all of it at once). Also, there are no paragraphs with less than two sentences (this was resolved in the prose review above).  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 22:05, 2 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Weird. I didn't receive the ping news. Anyways, I'll support this article. Good work.Tintor2 (talk) 22:26, 2 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Support. I see no problems with the article, though maybe the incidents section could be prose format rather than list format, otherwise all good. epicgenius (talk) 03:42, 3 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Comments from GoneIn60
 * Rolling stock section
 * "The table below lists the details of..." – I would advise modifying these statements per MOS:IMAGES. Although this particular guideline applies to images, it's a general rule of thumb that can apply to any object. Perhaps instead of having this introductory line of text, move it to the table with a title heading such as "Details of the DRR's locomotives".


 * The first image (Wikipedia DRR Steam Engine - IMG 1744.jpg) should probably be reduced in size using the upright parameter as defined at MOS:IMGSIZE. Currently, there is a lot of whitespace between the first paragraph and the chart below at certain resolutions. Perhaps add  to help alleviate some of that unintentional whitespace effect. --GoneIn60 (talk) 13:40, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

That's pretty much all I saw as potential issues, and the article overall is well-written and well-referenced. I would add my support once these are addressed. Thanks. --GoneIn60 (talk) 13:40, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Actions completed.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 16:55, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Support – following recent changes. --GoneIn60 (talk) 00:19, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Closing comments
To recap, the article has completed a review of its prose, images, and sources, and has five confirmed supporters. Unless there is anything outstanding that you can find, it appears that this review is ready to close and the that this article should be upgraded to FA status.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 16:55, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I've run out of time tonight, but I should get to this in my next run through if Ian doesn't get there first. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:39, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 19:48, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.