Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dolly de Leon/archive1

Dolly de Leon

 * Nominator(s): Pseud 14 (talk) 18:16, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Having previously worked on Filipino related BLPs, here's my next work on actress Dolly de Leon. For the better part of her 3-decade career, De Leon was an obscure figure who predominantly appeared as a background actor with non-speaking roles or what she would call "a device to get the story moving or a sounding board for the lead". Then came 2022 when she achieved international breakthrough after being cast in Ruben Östlund's Triangle of Sadness, where she was described as the "breakout star", earning critical acclaim for her performance as the toilet cleaner, Abigail. She received significant awards attention, including nominations for a Golden Globe Award and BAFTA Award for Best Supporting Actress, becoming the first Filipino to be nominated for the awards. Constructive criticism, in any form and from anyone, will be appreciated. Happy to address your comments and thanks to all who take the time to review. Pseud 14 (talk) 18:16, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Image review

 * File:Dolly de Leon 2023 (cropped).jpg has a clear purpose in the article and has an appropriate caption. The image should have some form of WP:ALT text. Everything looks good on the Wikimedia Commons side.
 * I am not fully convinced that File:TriangleSadBFI151022 (2 of 5) (52448157459) (cropped).jpg really adds much to the article. Dolly de Leon is on the far edge and not really visible, especially when compared to the other two people, and it is a pretty low-quality image in general. I get that it is nice to have multiple images, but I just do not see this image being super helpful.

I hope this review is helpful. Apologies for not being more helpful, but I wanted to try and help with this FAC. Best of luck with it. Aoba47 (talk) 23:10, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the image review Aoba47. Alt text added to the infobox image and I’ve removed the low quality image. Always appreciate your review and help. Pseud 14 (talk) 00:42, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the response and for addressing everything. This passes my image review. Please let me know if there are images added to the article so I could review them later on. Everything looks good to me. Have a Happy New Year! Aoba47 (talk) 01:03, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I will definitely let you know if I find some better quality images on Commons. Happy New Year! Pseud 14 (talk) 01:36, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Comments Support by Chris

 * "British Vogue named her one the 30 most famous stars" => "British Vogue named her one of the 30 most famous stars"
 * A silly error on my part. Thanks for catching


 * "De Leon was cast in several screen roles, during which she also acted in plays," - she didn't act in plays during the screen roles. Maybe try "De Leon was cast in several screen roles, but also acted in plays,"
 * Revised as suggested


 * "De Leon's career prospect improved" => "De Leon's career prospects improved"
 * Done


 * "a television sequel of the 2013 film of the same name" => "a television sequel to the 2013 film of the same name"
 * Done


 * "has a running time of 4 hours and 10 minutes" - is this really relevant?
 * Agree. Removed this and tweaked to include something more relevant. Hope that works.


 * "De Leon stated that she is separated" => "De Leon stated in [year] that she was separated"
 * Added year


 * That's what I got - great work as ever! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your kind words and review ChrisTheDude. Comments have been actioned. Let me know if I may have missed anything or if they have been all addressed satisfactorily. Pseud 14 (talk) 09:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Aoba47

 * I have a question about this part, (starring as a toilet manager), from the lead. What is a "toilet manager"? The article later on describes this role as a toilet cleaner and the Triangle of Sadness article calls the character a "cleaning woman". I do not understand what manager means in this context.
 * In the film, the part was actually called "toilet manager", and also mentioned in this article/interview: Abigail, the cleaning manager on a luxury cruise on a luxury yacht. Actually, you're called the toilet manager - that's the name that was used in the film. So the terms toilet manager, cleaning manager or toilet cleaner would all refer to her role and were used interchangeably in various articles/publications that I've read.
 * That may be true, but I still have no idea what it means. In my opinion, it is unclear, particularly to a reader who has either not seen the movie or really read anything about it like myself. If these titles are interchangeable, why not just use one of the titles that is more easily understood to a wider audience? Aoba47 (talk) 00:53, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I've switched to toilet cleaner consistent with the article prose


 * I have a question about this part, (and credits Jose Estrella for teaching acting techniques). Who is Jose Estrella? I am guessing based on the context of the sentence that he was a professor at the University of the Philippines Diliman. If that is the case, I'd say something along the lines of "and credits professor Jose Estrella" as I was not fully certain who this person was when first reading this part.
 * He is a professor, along with Mabesa. I have added it now.


 * Could you clarify this part for me, (by the prospect of financial security)? Based on the previous sentences, De Leon was not having much luck in her acting career so I would think that if financial security was one of her focuses, that she would be more motivated to look a career that is traditionally viewed as more stable. I do understand how her daughter helped her, but this part somewhat came out of left field for me.
 * I think I might have removed that when I copyedited it. Revised the sentence where it is now mentioned that she worked odd jobs to make ends meet while struggling to establish her career, as this is also supported in the source, which says: Since she had to sustain a regular income for her kids
 * That doesn't really answer my question though. I had read the parts about her working odd jobs and such, but my question would be why would she view auditioning and an acting career in general as a way to sustain a "regular income" and get "financial security" after almost quitting because she was struggling with her acting career. The part that I quoted above seems to say that she viewed acting as this "financial security" that is somewhat contradicted in earlier parts of the paragraph. Aoba47 (talk) 00:56, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Understand what you mean, removed the financial security aspect, and stuck with just her being motivated by her daughter.


 * I have a comment on this part, (Set in a dystopian future, Lav Diaz's science fiction drama The Halt (2019) featured De Leon as the education minister in a post-apocalyptic Manila). It seems rather repetitive to have both "dystopian future" and "post-apocalyptic" in the same sentence. I think you could drop the "Set in a dystopian future" beginning entirely without losing anything.
 * Done


 * Why is Ryan Oquiza attributed in one sentence for her review (i.e. for Billie and Emma) but not in another sentence for another review (i.e. for Verdict)?
 * I've indented to have some sort of variation, so it doesn't become repetitive. I've added it otherwise, but also, only used the last name after the first instance, since his reviews have been used a few more times in the article.
 * That's fair. I prefer consistency, but I am also fully aware that this is a personal preference on my part and I know that others disagree so it should be fine. Aoba47 (talk) 01:00, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I remember there was some talk about De Leon possibly getting nominated for an Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress for Triangle of Sadness. I am not sure if she was really "snubbed" for the nomination as it was not 100% expected by those who follow and gauge the chances for these awards, but was there any coverage about this? It may not be necessarily, especially since she did not get a nomination, but I was just curious as that is where I first heard of De Leon (i.e. in the Academy Awards-related discussions). There are already two paragraphs on this film though so it may be overkill.
 * I was bummed about that snub too, but from what I've gathered it was mostly Filipino publications that talked about the "snub" perhaps because they had higher expectations. Although I figured, since this was her breakout role and critically reviewed performance, and possibly her work which had the most coverage to this point, that I should focus on the critical ones to write about like how she got the role and the preparations she did, as well as the reviews and recognitions she has gotten, which hopefully I was able to succinctly cover in the two paras. To answer your question though, from a BLP perspective, snubs from Oscars or any awards organization for that matter, are generally trivial or insignificant IMO, so I would agree with you saying it's overkill. There have been plenty of notable actors that have been snubbed from an Academy Award (with FA or GA articles in wiki), but I have not seen such examples were them not being nominated or "snubbed" was ever discussed. Hopefully that makes sense, and sorry for the very long response.
 * No need to apologize. I appreciate the response. What you said makes perfect sense to me. I had similar thoughts, but I still wanted to get your opinion on it because I do remember a minor conversation leading up to the Oscar nominations about whether or not she would get nominated. I agree that it is better to focus on the other elements here, particularly since this "snub" was not widely reported and for the most part, it is not really something discussed on Wikipedia outside of the extreme cases. Aoba47 (talk) 01:00, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I have a comment for this sentence: (She played Carlo Aquino's mother, who prompts her son to track his uncle's disappearance.) If read literally, it says that she is playing Aquino's mother in the movie as if he is a character and not an actor in it.
 * You're right, I just realized that. I have tweaked it to say she played the mother of Aquino's character.


 * For this part, (The critic for Rappler ), why not attribute the critic's name? Also the wording, "the critic", makes it sound like they are the only critic employed by that company. I would be consistent on whether or not critics are directly attributed in the prose or not.
 * I think I missed that. I've added the attribution to the reviewer's name.


 * I am not exactly sure what this means, (the dark character of a powerful and demanding retail mogul), specifically the "dark character" bit. There are so many ways that could be interpreted so further clarification would be ideal.
 * I removed dark to avoid ambiguity.


 * For this part, (she considers herself to be reticent and a "shy" person), I do not think the "shy" quote is necessary as it is already covered by describing her as reticent.
 * Removed


 * I do not think University of the Philippines Diliman needs to be linked twice in the article.
 * Unlinked


 * Is there a reason why the roles for If You Leave and Simula sa Gitna are left blank?
 * Unfortunately, there are no available online sources that I could find which provide her roles or names for the above work. I've learned in previous reviews, that in the absence of high-quality reliable source for roles, we should just leave in blank. (as far as I can remember)
 * That makes sense. I have run into similar cases myself so I completely understand that. Aoba47 (talk) 01:00, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * In the "Acting Credits" section, shouldn't there be a table for her theatre work? It is mentioned in the lead as something she is known for, and it has been done in other actor's filmographies, such as Natalie Portman and Anne Baxter for two examples.
 * I actually intended to create a separate article/list for her performances on screen and stage, however, since her main article a bit shorter, I decided to include the tables on it. As for her theatre work, I've only been able to find articles that mention the plays she has done, which estimates around which period that happened, likely after she was done with university, based on interviews and articles I've read. Since most of her career, she was an obscure figure that played minor or sometimes uncredited roles, there wasn't much information on her stage roles as well. I just worked off on what was available and wrote it as part of her early work.
 * That's fair. Thank you for the clarification. Aoba47 (talk) 01:03, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I hope these comments are helpful. Once everything has been addressed, I will read through the article again, but I doubt that I will find anything substantial. Just to be clear, I am focusing this review purely on the prose so I am not going into the sources really at all. Hopefully, other editors will participate in this review. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 22:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for your review Aoba47. I have addressed and actioned your comments. Let me know if I may have missed anything. Appreciate you doing both an image and prose review. Pseud 14 (talk) 00:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your responses. I just have one point remaining with the "financial security" part. Apologies for getting stuck on such a minor point. It just felt a little jarring to read that she took all these odd jobs to support herself while acting and almost gave up on it because it was not going well to then read that she viewed it as a way to get "financial security". Hopefully, that makes sense, and apologies for typing a lot to try and convey what I am thinking. I am glad that I could help. I enjoyed reading the article. Aoba47 (talk) 01:03, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Aoba47 No worries at all, I took that part out so it is conveyed better. Hopefully that improves the flow and structure. Let me know if that works. Pseud 14 (talk) 01:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * That looks better. Thank you for your patience. I will look through the article again sometime tomorrow. Aoba47 (talk) 01:50, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * After looking through the article again, I could not find anything further to discuss. I support this FAC for promotion based on the prose. Wonderful work as always. Aoba47 (talk) 20:03, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support and for doing the extra prose review. Very much appreciated. Pseud 14 (talk) 21:53, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Source reviewish
Spot-check upon request and noting that I am not deeply familiar with the reliability of entertainment sources. That said, it seems like they are mostly prominent websites and news sources, my usual worry about news sources notwithstanding. What makes preview.ph a reliable source? Ditto for DiscussingFilm. Source formatting seems mostly consistent, but it was a lot of sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC) Thanks for taking up the source review Jo-Jo Eumerus. I have provided my response to your questions on the reliability of the 2 citations. Let me know if they are to your satisfaction. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:11, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Preview is a fashion/lifestyle/entertainment magazine owned by publishing company Summit Media, which also published/printed (before digitalization) the Philippine editions of Cosmopolitan, FMH, and Esquire among others. It has been in circulation since 1995, and has editorial oversight, which I think would support its credibility. I've also made use of this site as citations in a few other FAs, namely Angel Aquino and Judy Ann Santos. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:11, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * DiscussingFilm is a news/entertainment aggregator site that started in 2016, and launched the DiscussingFilm Critic Awards four years ago. While fairly new, the website does provide an editorial team, as well as lists its DFCA members comprising critics/journalists/writers from reputable publications such as The Hollywood Reporter, Variety, and The Independent, among others. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:11, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Side note: I added Fn 70 to Fn 74 in this version for the section that discusses films that have already premiered at the 2024 Sundance Film Festival this month. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * These seem OK too, with my previous caveats regarding familiarity and no spot check in mind. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:24, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Comments by FrB.TG
Recusing to review.
 * The lead is currently too focused on her awards. I read only four lines where it's not about her awards. Some variety would be good.
 * I've tweaked and expanded the lead a bit. I had initial challenges since she was pretty much obscure for most of her career, hopefully it gives a better summary and not sound to list-y with awards when you have another read through it.
 * It reads better now. FrB.TG (talk) 19:27, 29 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Any particular reason for why you have opted for the American date format (MM/DD/YYYY) when the rest of the world's default is DD/MM/YYYY? I suppose the key is consistency throughout the article, but it still strikes me as strange for an article about a Filipino.
 * Good question, I think (I could be wrong though) the Philippines traditionally follows MDY as with American. At least from what I've noticed with editors/patrollers fixing date formatting in wiki for Filipino articles. I sort of followed the same since referring to date format by country, where MDY is also acceptable.
 * Interesting. I didn't know other countries used this date format. Not a fan of this confusing format (when it's written in numbers) but that is just my personal opinion and I suppose it's fine as it is here. FrB.TG (talk) 19:27, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Me too, number format confuses me. I never write months in numbers IRL either, always written in words :D Pseud 14 (talk) 20:17, 29 January 2024 (UTC)


 * "dual parts of the nurse and the messenger" - you can't use definite article for "nurse" and "messenger" when they haven't been introduced before.
 * You're right. Fixed this to an indefinite article (I may have gotten carried away with usage of false titles that I've applied it elsewhere when I'm not supposed to)


 * " It won the Audience Award for Best Feature Film at the latter." "latter" is used to denote the second or second mentioned of two people or things, but there are four film festivals listed in the previous sentence.
 * Fixed this, hopefully it reads better.


 * "Lav Diaz's science fiction drama The Halt (2019) featured De Leon as the education minister in a post-apocalyptic Manila" - see my point above about definite article (unless she was the only "education minister in a post-apocalyptic Manila").
 * Same as above, corrected.


 * "In the film, De Leon played the mother-in-law of Eigenmann's character, who is conflicted in paying for her son's legal fees." Is it De Leon's or Eigenmann's character that is "conflicted in paying for her son's legal fees"?
 * Reworded


 * "De Leon portrayed Inday Arcega, a criminal from an organized syndicate that carry out political executions." "syndicate" is singular, so the verb should also be singular.
 * Fixed


 * "Set in the aftermath of the 1957 airplane crash of then-president Ramon Magsaysay" - president of which country?
 * Specified

More later. FrB.TG (talk) 14:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the initial comments and edits FrB.TG. I've actioned your comments. Let me know if the revised lead works or if some changes still need to be done. Pseud 14 (talk) 17:02, 29 January 2024 (UTC)


 * "Verdict was submitted for consideration for Best International Feature Film at the 92nd Academy Awards." Perhaps specify that it was the Philippine's official entry.
 * Changed as suggested


 * "She became the first Filipino to be nominated for the latter two awards." See above regarding my point about "latter". I think swapping it for "last" would work.
 * Done


 * "De Leon voiced Rosalinda in the adult animated drama The Missing" - which year?
 * Added in brakcet after the movie title


 * "She earned a Best Supporting Actress win" - too verbose; just "she won Best Supporting Actress" should do.
 * Agree, changed.


 * Not seeing the source for it.
 * Thanks for catching this, I knew I read it somewhere and quoted it. Should be added now.


 * "A Very Good Girl was a commercial success, earning over ₱100 million (US$2.03 million), making it one of the highest-grossing Filipino films of 2023." The source cited calls it the "biggest Filipino movie of 2023". Was it later surpassed by (an)other movie(s)?
 * Yes it was later it was surpassed by another film in December, which eventually became the highest of all time, so I ended up tweaking it, since it has slipped to second.


 * "De Leon stated in 2023 that she was separated and a single parent" - unless she isn't a single parent anymore, I would add an "is" before "a single parent".
 * Changed


 * "When discussing her insecurities, she considers herself to be reticent as a result of struggles early in her career." - "reticent" to do what? FrB.TG (talk) 19:27, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I switched it up to say socially reticent. Let me know if that works, happy to revise it otherwise.
 * Thanks FrB.TG. Addressed the additional comments. Let me know if the changes look/read better. Pseud 14 (talk) 20:17, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Regarding the "socially reticent" part, this is what the source says: "Before I was so insecure, I could not even face strangers because I'm really an introvert. I'm shy. But because of what's happened, it's given me confidence. It's given me agency in my own life." The quote indicates that she has gained confidence and agency as a result of past struggles. Therefore, the article should reflect that she has moved beyond her previous social reticence to become more confident and empowered. FrB.TG (talk) 14:15, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this FrB.TG. I've tweaked this part to elaborate and be specific per your suggestion. Let me know if that reads better or if changes are still needed. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Support on all criteria. FrB.TG (talk) 18:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support FrB.TG. Appreciate your patience as always and the MoS edits you have done as well. Pseud 14 (talk) 18:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

NØ

 * "She made her film debut in Peque Gallaga's horror anthology Shake, Rattle & Roll III (1991), and was cast in small and uncredited roles throughout the 1990s and 2000s." - Comma is not required here
 * Removed


 * "starring as a toilet cleaner of a luxury yacht" - on a luxury yacht, perhaps?
 * Done


 * "a part she later described as "[having] the spotlight for a few seconds"" - do you mean a part during which she had the spolight for a few seconds?
 * Revised. Let me know if that's how you meant it.


 * "based on the 2018 novel of the same name by Liane Moriarty" - avoid WP:OFTHESAMENAME if possible
 * I'm serial user of this approach tbh. Revised.
 * Apologies for taking forever with this. Considering I also haven't had the motivation to write an FA myself lately, I hope it's more understandable, lol.--NØ 20:10, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Never too late to the party MaranoFan, and as always your feedback is much appreciated. I'm sure it'll spark soon. I had a bit of a break writing this one, I think 4 or so months in between, so totally get the need for a breather. I've actioned your comments. Let me know if there's anything I might have missed. Pseud 14 (talk) 22:44, 30 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Support - I am as impressed as ever at your ability to crank out these high-quality biographies so frequently.--NØ 22:52, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support and for this edit, that make sense now. Thanks for the kind words, I echo the same sentiments re your music-related FAs, it's like you do it in your sleep! Hope to see you here again soon. Pseud 14 (talk) 22:57, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 18:52, 31 January 2024 (UTC)