Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Domitian


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:22, 3 August 2008.

Domitian

 * Nominator(s): Steerpike (talk)

This article has taken a lot of time and effort. As I believe it currently fits all the criteria for a Featured Article Candidate, I'm proud to put this up for nomination. Style should be good, structure is clear, images are free, treatment is comprehensive without going into unnecessary detail, etc... I would like to pre-emptively address three possible criticisms though: Any other objections I'd be very happy to discuss! Regards. Steerpike (talk) 01:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Size: the current article size is 92kb, however readable prose only constitutes about 65kb. So I see no problems with the current size of the text. There is little that could be shortened in the current format anyway, since several terms relating to Roman history, especially in the opening sections, need at least some clarification for uninitiated readers.
 * Ancient sources: the use of ancient sources is generally discouraged as a primary source for a Wikipedia article. In some sections, I *do* cite ancient authors, but I have tried to use these sparingly, and only when a) the statements are uncontested, b) are used as a direct quote, or c) are used to highlight a controversy.
 * Modern source: some may criticize my "overreliance" on Brian Jones' The Emperor Domitian as the main source of reference for this article. However, as noted even within the article: book length studies of Domitian are few and far between, with the only other notable books either written over a hundred years ago (Gsell, 1894) or largely based on the work of Jones itself (Southern, 1997). At present, the work of Brian Jones is simply thé most authoritative source on the Domitianic era.

Comments from epicAdam (talk) 04:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Just for starters, here are some WP:MoS problems that can be dealt with fairly quickly:
 * The article jumps between British and American word spellings... choose a variation and then make sure all the following words match up: armor/armour; neighbor/neighbour; meter/metre; defense/defence; offense/offence; pretense/pretence; organize/organise; criticize/criticise; ization/isation; equaling/equalling; traveled/travelled; fulfillment/fulfilment; program/programme
 * There are areas that need non-breaking spaces (i.e. &amp;nbsp; ) between numbers and their units of measurement.
 * Units of measurement should be spelled out in the main article text and converted both between US standard and metric units. (i.e. "My house is 15 mi from the store." Not, "My house is 15 mi from the store.")
 * When providing dates, don't write "the 13th of January" write instead "13 January" or "January 13" (depends, again, on British v. American grammar)
 * You have a number of wikilinks that lead to disambiguation pages... you probably want to take care of those as well: Arx; Bath; Corruption; Dacian Wars; Domitian; Expedition; Flavia Domitilla; Forth; Illyricum; Lucius Aelius Lamia; Nominal; Odeum; Parthenius; Play

I'll check over other parts of the article in a bit, just wanted to give you a head start.
 * Ok, I went with British spelling and fixed consistency and measurement units accordingly. Non-breaking spaces added and disambiguation pages removed, except "Odeum", which can't lead anywhere else. Should I put a non-breaking space between "80,000 soldiers"? The dates still have to be addressed. --Steerpike (talk) 00:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All dates have been checked and fixed now. --Steerpike (talk) 18:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment I have no problems with this article's size, but for future reference, long articles can be split into subarticles. For example, you can split material from the "Emperor" section by creating "Domitian as Roman Emperor". Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 04:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * For authors like Eusebius of Caesarea. you usually alphabetize and/or list in references as Eusebius, not "of Caesarea".
 * Current ref 113 is missing a page number (Thompson, Leonard L.)
 * Current ref 94 is missing a page number (Di Martino, Vittorio)
 * http://www.livius.org/cao-caz/casperius/aelianus.html what makes this a reliable self-published work?
 * Also, I know you discussed this above, but there is a LOT that is sourced to primary sources. I don't have a problem with reliance on one secondary source, sometimes folks just don't write about what we want them to, but it's pretty much a given that Suetonius and Tacitus has axes to grind and too much reliance on them leaves you open to OR.
 * Otherwise links checked out with the link checker, sources look okay. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've fixed Eusebius and replaced refs without a page with better alternatives. The pageless citations were basically a remnant from a past version of the article. As for "Livius.org", the author, Jona Lendering, has adequate credentials to be considered reliable, I believe. But just to make sure, I've replaced the citation with one from Grainger. As for the ancient authors, I agree that relying on primary sources is dangerous with regards to OR. But I've expressly tried to avoid piecing together the article based only on classical authors. Whenever I do cite these primary sources, it's always for the reasons I mentioned above. But I could cut back on them if you like. I do like to include some references to ancient authors, as their texts are not only very interesting, but still widely read and hugely influential. --Steerpike (talk) 00:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * On livius.org, to determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information.
 * On the ancient sources, I totally understand the desire to add some ancient sources, it's just that if you rely on them too much (which is a fine line and something that varies from article to article) you're treding into OR territory. I tend towards the "use them as sources the absolute least you can" school, but that's something that's a personal preference. My rule of thumb is I use ancient/medieval sources for quotes and color, and try to rely on modern historians for facts and all other information. That doesn't always work out, (I had to use Bede a LOT with Augustine of Canterbury, and I certainly can't see forcing you to change out the sources just because of my whims. I'm hoping to find time to actually review the whole article in the next couple of days, we'll see how it goes. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments Excellent article overall. Nousernamesleft (talk) 20:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "between 69 and 96, encompassing the reigns of Domitian's father Vespasian (69–79), his elder brother Titus (79–81), and finally Domitian 's own ."
 * "...whose brief reign came to an unexpected end on 13 September 81." - tantalizing, but could you be a little bit less vague, even in the lead?
 * "The following day, Domitian was declared emperor by the Praetorian Guard, and began a reign which lasted more than fifteen years" - I'm not quite sure what's wrong with this sentence... maybe nothing is. However, I think that "and began a reign" seems not to use Domitian as a subject. Maybe "...Guard, beginning a reign..."?
 * I wonder why there's a citation for exactly one sentence in the lead? Is it a highly contentious statement?
 * "Domitian was born in Rome on 24 October 51, as the youngest son" - how about "...on 24 October 51; the youngest son..."
 * "Modern history has refuted these claims however, suggesting these stories..."
 * You seem to use commas very liberally throughout the article. While I don't think this is grammatically incorrect, it does make the reading a bit difficult sometimes. Would you clean this up a bit?
 * " A number of ancient authors have implicated Domitian in the death of his brother..."
 * "...suggesting the latter had played some part in uncovering the conspiracy..." - "some part" sounds strange - how about "a part"?
 * "A highly detailed account of the plot and the assassination is provided to us by Suetonius," - is provided to "us"? How about simply "is provided"?
 * Most points have been addressed in my last edit. With regards to the citation, I think someone once made a fuss about the statement in the lead not being sourced. But I've removed the citation now. As for the commas, I used these with the intention to improve readability, especially when the sentences are long, and contain a lot of information. But I'll see what I can do. --Steerpike (talk) 01:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Support all of my image concerns have been addresses/addressed as fully as possible, so there are no image formating problems when reading the page. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose MoS problems - sandwiching. Images shouldn't "sandwich" text between them. This happens six times. Also, comments in the image descriptions are lengthy, unnecessary, and sometimes include speculation/"weasel words", for example: "According to some authors, Nerva took part or had advance knowledge of the plot against Domitian. Immediately following the assassination, he was proclaimed emperor by the Senate." The phrase "according to some authors" jumps out, especially without citations to show that there are authors who believe such. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sandwiching probably depends on screen resolution. I have a 1024 x 768 monitor, and it looks fine to me. So I'm not sure if this can be fixed. I like to include a little more elaborate commentary in images than merely state "what it is". I think this is a bit more informative. And I don't usually cite sources in image descriptions because it's already mentioned in the text. But I could source it if you like (or change the wording). --Steerpike (talk) 10:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That wouldn't make sense. I have a tight resolution and it sandwiches. There is one image that is only a few lines apart, which would mean even with an extremely tight resolution, it should probably sandwich. I just moved the size to half of my screen width and it sandwiches at ceremonial heir. By the way, MoS does not allow images on the "left" to be directly under a heading, so thats a problem there. All you have to do about the wording is to drop the "some scholars" type of beginning. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Your text size then? Anyway, here's a proposal for a different alignment of images: User talk:Steerpike/Sandbox. Would that be better? MOS prefers that multiple images be staggered alternatively left and right. BUT, it also discourages left-aligned images under second level headings. I'm not sure if my proposed solution actually solves this, but otherwise I think aligning all images to the right will look awkward. I've also edited some of the captions, and cut the images of Vitellius and Titus altogether (in my alternative version). What do you think? --Steerpike (talk) 18:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Better. Now, to finish - 1) Under family, first paragraph, add a sentence or two extra. That will open the formatting up and the first paragraph is rather tiny. 2) Year of the four emperors - Move the picture down to the next paragraph, or split the top paragraph in half and move the picture infront of that new second paragraph. Add four lines or so to the second paragraph marriage section, split the top paragraph, move the picture down to the new second paragraph. I say this because the section is a little short and you can go into more detail about the state of the marriage. 3) In the administration section, move the picture down to the second paragraph, split the second paragraph, and add about two more lines. That section is a little brief, even though there is a lot you can say. 4) Military activity picture is 250 px, but other left pictures are 200px. Perhaps shrink it? Also, don't let pictures push the headings to the right, which it appears to do on my screen (Military activity and Dacian war, for example). Add a few lines about the state of military forces, what kind of patterns, leaders, etc. This will give you a new paragraph and you can move the fort picture down accordingly. 5) Standardize the image sizes, they tend to range a lot. If needed, crop the "excess" off the pictures. Domitians statue has a lot of extra hanging around that just takes up space. So does the stone face. Try that for now. It will fix a lot of the problems and fill out the article nicely. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, the new version is currently in progress, but not yet completely finished. A few notes:
 * I've moved the dynasty box to the Emperor section. This will clear up some image space in the introduction, and fits better contentwise.
 * I've expanded the marriage section in accordance to your wishes, and cut back on the caption text in the image.
 * Most other images have been moved to fit better with the text-structure. There should be next to no sandwiching left now.
 * You asked to expand the administration and military section, especially with regards to the image placement in the text, BUT there really isn't that much left to say. At least nothing that isn't already mentioned either a) in the section or b) somewhere else.
 * I haven't yet standardized the image sizes. I picked a different size for each image depending on how much detail should/can/needs to be shown. Busts are obviously going to be smaller than full length statues or maps. Images of coinage are naturally wide.
 * I have cropped the statue from Vaison-la-Romaine.
 * EDIT: the rock sculpture has been removed because apparently, it was subject to a special Romanian copyright. I've replaced it with a map, although I will see if I can find a better one yet.
 * Tell me what you think. --Steerpike (talk) 22:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Support I leave matters to technical accuracy and referencing to those more well versed in the topic than myself. Otherwise, excellent work: generally very well written and well illustrated. Please address the following issues in the lead: I have made a few other copyedits but the text is well structured, flows well and is involving. Fully supporting the article for featured status is pending completion of the minor copyedits that remain. Dhatfield (talk) 23:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "While Titus shared almost equal powers in the government of his father, Domitian was left with honours but no responsibilities." Titus' powers were equal to whose?
 * "encompassing the reigns of Domitian's father Vespasian (69–79), his elder brother Titus (79–81), and finally that of Domitian himself."
 * The sentences you mentioned have been fixed. --Steerpike (talk) 22:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Changed to support. Great work. Dhatfield (talk) 21:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I did go back and alter one or two of your copyedits. I think "foreshadowing what was to be his role for at least ten years" is less ambiguous than "foreshadowing his role for at least ten years", which could be read as if the foreshadowing lasted ten years. Also "was carrying on an affair", instead of "had carried on", in the Marriage section. The rumours of the affair were concurrent with the exile and return of Domitia. --Steerpike (talk) 00:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment: One thing that has been bothering me for a while is this: when do you capitalize the word "Emperor", and when not? I'm afraid capitalization is slightly inconsistent at the moment. --Steerpike (talk) 22:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Support changed from Slight oppose I think it's got the basics, just needs some work. Still some concerns over overlinking and jargon, but able to support now.
 * It probably could do with a good copyedit by someone better at it than i am. The prose is servicable, but might be a bit wordy at times.
 * Need to explain what Domitian being hailed as Caesar meant.
 * UPDATE: I don't think I'll ever be able to fix this. Much as I tried, it would probably take a long and awkward paragraph to adequately explain what the significance of Domitian being hailed as Caesar was. I'm just going to have to assume that it is clear from the context that it is a title connected to the imperial power. The word caesar is not thát obscure anyway. --Steerpike (talk) 22:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Same as above about linking revolted and Batavian revolt.
 * UDATE: Fixed. --Steerpike (talk) 22:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Jargon alert - the whole article is full of it. Folks aren't going to know what a suffect consul is, or what the various titles of magistracies are or anything like that. I strongly suggest having someone unfamiliar with Roman history read through the article. I'm too familiar to catch all the jargon.
 * Ok, general comment about the "jargon" complaints. I'll try to cut back on jargon wherever I can BUT, I can't and won't stop to explain every Latin/Roman term in the article. Not only would that make the text hopelessly convoluted (you should try to work in a definition for client in that paragraph), it would go against FA-criteria which ask that articles don't delve into unnecessary detail, and perhaps most importantly, would kind of beat the whole point of wikilinking, and Wikipedia in general. I don't think there's an elegant way to write an involving narrative on Domitian's life, AND at the same time digress to explain terms like quaestor, suffect consul, client,... I've checked the Encyclopedia Britannica entry on Domitian (otherwise far inferior to this article, if I may be so bold), and they also use terms like Praetor without explanation. Most of the times, it's clear from the context what the terms refer to (titles, offices), and if not, the explanation is only a click away.
 * While I sympathize, I only do so to some extent. I write FAs on almost as obscure topics (medieval English bishops, anyone? Quarter Horses?) and get constant requests to explain in the text things that I'd rather just wikilink. In all fairness, Domitian is probably a bigger topic (and more important topic) than Easy Jet, so it needs to be understandable to folks without having to leave your article to figure things out. Suffect consul should be explained, I would think, otherwise people aren't going to realise that while its an honor, it's not as big an honor as being named the main nominative consul for the year. I can see that maybe not so much need for praetor, etc., but when Domitian is acclaimed as Caesar, while it is clear from the context that this is a title, it's not clear why this acclamation is important. If it was clear that Caesar was the title right below Augustus, it would be more clear what the entire context of the event is. As far as client, if you can't explain what the it means in that sentence, you might just go for "spent the night hiding with a supporter of his father" which expresses what a client is without bogging the article down with uneccessary detail. As a last note, the idea is your article is so engaging and interesting that they don't WANT to click away to figure out what a term is, right? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As with caesar, I'm having a hard time fitting in a good explanation of "suffect consul". I don't think it's quite as difficult to do as caesar, but I haven't yet worked out a good new paragraph. --Steerpike (talk) 22:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's the definition from the Oxford Classical Dictionary: "suffectio was the procedure by which a substitute or suffect (suffectis) was appointed whenever a Roman magistrate resigned or died in office." then later "Under the empire consuls ceased to hold office for the full year; those appointed after the original ('ordinary') pair were suffecti. They did not give their name to the year, unlike 'ordinary' ones, although they had the appropriate rank and title of consularis." (I can supply the exact page number and stuff if you like) It might work well as "...suffect consul, or replacement consul..." in the text with a longer explanation in a footnote. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments between your text. Regards. --Steerpike (talk) 00:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * UPDATE: I've cut back further on ancient sources. Out of 153 references (not counting duplicates), "only" 32 are still sourced to ancient authors, as opposed to 56 in the original version. But only a few of these are actually used a direct source of "fact" (I'd have to order a new book to fix these). The others are usually sources to direct quotes, and accompanied by references to modern authors. --Steerpike (talk) 22:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment. All the images are fine, copyright-wise.  The png diagram and maps are unreadable in the thumbnail versions, though.  SVG conversions would be helpful.--ragesoss (talk) 01:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Notes, WP:OVERLINKing. Why are solo years and centuries linked throughout (see WP:MOSDATE, WP:MOSLINK and WP:OVERLINK).  Why are common places known to everyone, like Greece, Scotland, Spain and Rome linked?  Why are common words known to most English speakers (like democracy, law, taxation and morality) linked? (These are samples only, the overlinking is throughout.)   Image captions are incorrectly punctuated, see WP:MOS for the difference in punctuation between full sentences and sentence fragments.  There are date issues throughout; I fixed a few (see my edit summaries), and please read WP:MOSDATE regarding samples like ... a crisis in October of 97, when ... solo years aren't linked, and I believe the "of" shouldn't be there (not certain, pls doublecheck).  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The reign of Domitian has some importance in the history of Scotland, so it would make sense to link it in this article. Maybe not so much Greece or Spain, but certainly Rome. Aside from the fact that Domitian's reign significantly changed the face of the ancient city of Rome, it seems beyond absurd not to link Rome in an article on a Roman Emperor. But I was already fixing the overlinking while you posted this. By the way, you linked "18 September 96" in the third paragraph of the lead, but this date already has a link at the top of the lead. --Steerpike (talk) 21:23, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Dates are not linked or not because they were previously linked: they are linked or not so they will display consistently per user preferences. By linking one, and not the other, one of them displays for me as September 18, while the other displays as 18 September.  See WP:MOS; either link all month-day combos or delink all.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 21:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed + overlinking in general. If there's anything else that should be (de)linked, feel free to change it. --Steerpike (talk) 22:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.