Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dragon Quest/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 00:12, 19 March 2011.

Dragon Quest

 * Nominator(s): 陣  内 Jinnai 17:26, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because it has gone through great expansion and overhaul since the last time including a copyedit. While it failed a wikiproject A-class assement, it seemed to be more due to copyediting. I would like to try and, if possible, get this as a FA for the 25th anniversary of the series this May. 陣 内 Jinnai 17:26, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Source review Nikkimaria (talk) 22:04, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * "The Mystery Dungeon and Itadaki Street series use characters and other elements from Dragon Quest games; the Mystery Dungeon series has gone on to spawn its own franchise." - source?
 * The games themselves. I guess I could cite EVERY SINGLE GAME of the multitude from that series which are, for the mystery dungeon, in the dozens. However, I would attest that the links that previously cite some of those games are enough.
 * Alright, I have a source that notes that another non-Dragon Quest game uses the same engine, by the same developer with the same series title, but different characters. 陣 内 Jinnai 20:35, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * "Beginning in 1989 with three series, the media franchise expanded rapidly" - source?
 * Rephrased. That statement is a now a summary statement supported by the following paragraphs in that section.
 * "Playing the Dragon Warrior III with the name "Erdrick" is impossible as the game does not allow you to continue if the name is used." - source?
 * The game itself. Look at general sources.
 * "Horii's company, Armor Project, is in charge of the Dragon Quest games that were published by Enix and Square Enix." - source?
 * The games themselves. Look at general sources.
 * "The Japanese release of Dragon Quest VIII retains the traditional text menus. However, the Japanese release of Dragon Quest IX uses the menus based on the English release of Dragon Quest VIII." - source?
 * The games themselves. Look at general sources.
 * Square Enix or Square-Enix?
 * Fixed. Square Enix.
 * All web references need publishers and retrieval dates
 * Fixed, i think. I fixed the publishers, but as far as I could tell they all had access dates. If there isn't one, please list it specifically.
 * Current refs 33, 79 lack publisher; 111 was retrieved in the future
 * Fixed. 陣 内 Jinnai 22:46, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ref 10 has the wrong publisher listed
 * What does IGN stand for? Also, it's a publisher, not an author
 * IGN stands for IGN as far as I know. The full name, if one exists, is never used by any source, reliable or not.
 * What makes this a reliable source?
 * It was used in a historical enyclopedia for gaming published by a reknowned proffessor in the field. See WP:SE.
 * Who is the author of the site, and what are his qualifications in this field?
 * Be consistent in what is wikilinked when. Also check existing wikilinks - 1up is linked to a gaming term, not a publisher/publication
 * Fixed 1up
 * What makes this a reliable source? This? This?
 * All of those meet the qualifications of a WP:SPS. If you want more details, WP:VG/S has had a history which can tell you more of who are more familar with them. However, its pretty easy to others generally considered RSes using them.
 * Looked at VG/S and linked discussions. I'm ambivalent on Square Enix Music, but the discussions don't seem to support the use of RPGamer or RPGFan in FA-level articles. Can you justify their use?
 * ref 71: title?
 * Added. 陣 内 Jinnai 22:50, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Book sources usually need page numbers
 * Source #? A lot of those books are being used in a way to "show they exist" not to cite a specific passage or anything. As such they do not need page numbers.
 * Can you rationalize your use of amazon.com and other commercial/promotional sites here?
 * They are used to meet WP:V that items exist or for interviews on them, such as the Dragon Quest website. That is a perfectly acceptable use for those sites.
 * In general, citation formatting should be more consistent.
 * Please elaborate.
 * Name things consistently (for example, squareenixmusic.com has two different names); be more consistent in what is italicized when; be more consistent in what is wikilinked when; use a consistent date formatting; like citations should be formatted the same; etc
 * Should now be fixed as far as date formatting, wikilinking and formating style (as much as can be with different types of refs). As for italics, I need some clearer indication where stuff is improperly italicized and its not part of the template.
 * For example, 1up is sometimes italicized and sometimes not.
 * cite video game has not been updated to conform with core due to outstanding issues that no one at core seems willing to help with. I've posted there some time ago and its resulted in no action. So some of the Japanese games have italicized kana/kanji, but there is nothing I can do about this. 陣 内 Jinnai 19:10, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't state this before because I thought it would be apparant with a series that would be citing from every one of their 9 main series games that plastering citations after every single item which can be verified by playing the game would be better done by general sources as in some cases that's 9 references after a source and would clearly harm the readability if everywhere across the whole article it was done. You'll note I only do this for the main series games and not the spinoffs because the spinoffs are used a lot less and often times 1-2 cites are all that is needed. 陣 内 Jinnai 23:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Look at the VG project own guidelines, which advise against relying so heavily on games as primary sources. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:56, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And where possible and appropriate, I've used secondary sources. However, I cannot find where it discourages them, except for use with plot. Moreover, the overall usage does not violate WP:PRIMARY for what they're being used for. 陣 内 Jinnai 20:39, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Disambig/External Link check - No dabs or dead external links. -- Pres N  01:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * One small thing that I noticed is that we are using the names from the English remakes when we are talking about the Japanese versions of the orignal games. For example the line  Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen was released in Japan in 1990 and in North America in 1992 as Dragon Warrior IV is used. One problem here is that the original Famicom game was not called Chapters of the Chosen so the part about Chapters of the Chosen being released in 1990 is not completely accurate. I was wondering if the original names should be used when the original version is being discussed. This is not a big issue for me and I have what the rules say about this. Finally, if it is changed the 5th a 6th games should be altered as well.--76.66.180.54 (talk) 01:25, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Dragon Quest IV's original title is ドラゴンクエストIV 導かれし者たち which rougly translates to Dragon Quest IV:The Chosen Ones. In addition, MOS:FOREIGN discourages usage of foreign words, especially when there is an English translation. That it isn't a 100% litteral translation doesn't matter as most translations aren't. 陣 内 Jinnai 03:02, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Good, that settles that. I hope the request goes well.--76.66.180.54 (talk) 02:27, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

<!--*: I'd like to see mention that Dragon Quest has a number of video game spin-offs in the lead.
 * Done. 陣 内 Jinnai 20:35, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It should be mentioned that Nintendo published Dragon Quest IX in NA and PAL, and Dragon Quest VI on DS in NA.
 * Well as Nintendo has had mixed publications with Enix and Square-Enix as to what titles they've published, I've left it out as I didn't see it nessasary. After all, the original NES games were published by Nintendo also. 陣 内 Jinnai 20:35, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps mention can be made of Nintendo's publishing duties through the series history; ie, commenting that they were responsible for bringing the first four games to North America, and later assisted in the English release of Dragon Quests IX and VI. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that Dragon Quest IV and V, like VIII, are not numbered in PAL.
 * Was VI? I know I mentioned VIII as i just edited that section. 陣 内 Jinnai 20:35, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * VI is not yet confirmed for a release outside of Japan and North America, so I cannot say for sure if it will be or not. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright that info should be noted and cited. 陣 内 Jinnai 22:44, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * No mention of any of the games' release in Australia as Australia or as part of the umbrella PAL regions. Europe is also excluded in some instances, like with Dragon Quest IX.
 * If they have a special release date and/or released by a different company, then they can be. However, I do think they are at the same time treated as part of the PAL region. What titles were released in Australlia because I know it wasn't that many. 陣 内 Jinnai 20:35, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Dragon Quests VIII, IX, IV, and V have been released in Australia (IX by Nintendo). - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Different release dates also otherwise there's no need. 陣 内 Jinnai 21:29, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * All three instances of an Australian release are of different dates from their European releases (though IV, V, and VI are separated by only one day). I simply feel that since it is generally considered a common practice to mention Australian releases since it is a primarily English-speaking region, we should mention it where relevant. It just seems incomplete to only mention Europe and North America. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:40, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * First paragraph of spin-offs could use some referencing.
 * That's a summary paragraph. I added a cite to the 1 item about Mystery Dungeon spawning its own games. 陣 内 Jinnai 20:35, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * No mention of Dragon Quest: Shōnen Yangus to Fushigi no Dungeon, another Mystery Dungeon game (though developed by Cavia instead of ChunSoft). The paragraph on Dragon Quest Monsters does not mention Dragon Quest Monsters: Caravan Heart or Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker 2.
 * Okay I've added those. 陣 内 Jinnai 00:20, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Could some of the smaller paragraphs be merged in some way? For example, the first two paragraphs of Books and anime could work well enough together.
 * Started on this with spinoffs. 陣 内 Jinnai 00:20, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The red links should go, unless there's a relevant guideline that recommends keeping them.
 * WP:Redlink - redlinks are not only permissible, but encouraged for articles that are likely to be created. While some of those could be contested, at the very least Ichimura meets that criteria. The others, I don't know as I don't know if they have a decent quality Japanese page. 陣 内 Jinnai 20:35, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Do any sources exist to verify why the name of Churches was changed in North America?
 * See 3rd point. The games themselves. Sources do exist talk in general how Nintendo heavily censored Christian religious symbols and terms. 陣 内 Jinnai 03:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * EDIT:Point is moot now because i founda source stating that explicitly. 陣 内 Jinnai 17:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The use of player vs. players is inconsistent, and shifts at times.
 * Okay i've moved most over to players except where it the use of the plural could imply the games are multiplayer. 陣 内 Jinnai 03:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Some lines in gameplay, including the last sentences of the first, second, and fifth paragraphs; the last sentence of the fifth paragraph in particular seems dubious, since it discusses a change occurring in several games, and is somewhat difficult to verify by playing even one of the games. It seems somewhat trivial regardless, so I was wondering if we couldn't just lose it.
 * Specifically what? The games can verify factual information. That is what WP:PRIMARY allows. 陣 内 Jinnai 03:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Even still, the point stands that the use of "puff puff" as an attack is kind of trivial. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 23:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed it, not because I agree with you, but because this is suppose to be a summary page and that info can be left for Gameplay of Dragon Quest. 陣 内 Jinnai 22:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The paragraph in general seems a little pointless in the gameplay section; perhaps mention of the censorship of "puff puff" and the above mentioned church could be mentioned in the last paragraph of Creation and design?
 * The "puff puff" thing has been commented on by multiple reviewers so its not irrelevant. As for the flow, that could be looked at. 陣 内 Jinnai 03:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * EDIT: I removed 1 line where it did seem kind of tacked on and pointless. 陣 内 Jinnai 03:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Monsters section's paragraphs could be combined into a single paragraph.
 * I'm against combining paragraphs just to combine them. I understand the reason for not wanting too few small paragraphs, but the opposite it true. 陣 内 Jinnai 03:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a good point, but I don't agree that these two paragraphs in particular are not workable as one. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 23:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * After looking at it again, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree; I see the first paragraph talking about monsters in general; the second is talking about the slime. 陣 内 Jinnai 22:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The Erdrick section does not give a good explanation for the inclusion of Loto in the section title; it should either be removed or given further explanation.
 * It was translated to Loto in later versions, thus Loto=Erdrick. It would be difficult to have it be Erdrick when the common name is Dragon Quest which uses Loto, but Loto is not as well know either. Maybe someone else can comment here. 陣 内 Jinnai 03:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC)-->
 * Comments by New Age Retro Hippie
 * No major objections anymore; I was impressed that the Reception adequately covered the recent boost in popularity outside of Japan with DQIX's sales. Support. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:35, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Comments by David Fuchs
 * Wouldn't it make more sense to put the gameplay/common elements at the beginning of the article? Or at least something of a quick development overview? Right now the article doesn't really flow, or give a proper intro outside the lead. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 16:32, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As I can see how it would be modeled for individual video game articles, I can see where you're coming from there. Hence I moved it. 陣 内 Jinnai 20:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * What's the source for "Dragon Quest is not as successful outside Japan, as it is eclipsed by another RPG series, Final Fantasy."?
 * Added cite. 陣 内 Jinnai 18:34, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * doesn't support the first part of the gameplay section, namely, "In Dragon Quest, players control a party of characters that can walk into a town and buy weapons, armor, and items to defeat monsters. Outside of town, on the world map or in a dungeon,".
 * Likewise, the above ref does not support "When the party encounters monsters, during either a random encounter or boss battle, the view switches from an overhead perspective to the first person, and players are presented with several options on a menu. The first-person menu-based battles have become a staple of the series."
 * Another spot check: "Each game has its particular set of classes; typical options include the Cleric, Fighter, Jester, Thief, Warrior, and Mage classes." → not explicitly supported by or, and the note appended (currently #5) is full of unverified commentary (as are many of the notes.)
 * Oppose Judging by the above there appear to be referencing concerns. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 21:14, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll address the others later, but I'll say the same thing I told Nikkimaria "I didn't state this before because I thought it would be apparant with a series that would be citing from every one of their 9 main series games that plastering citations after every single item which can be verified by playing the game would be better done by general sources as in some cases that's 9 references after a source and would clearly harm the readability if everywhere across the whole article it was done. You'll note I only do this for the main series games and not the spinoffs because the spinoffs are used a lot less and often times 1-2 cites are all that is needed."


 * the items cited are non-contriverisial statements of fact verifiable within the game. That is what WP:PRIMARY is for. I take offense that the notes are largely "unsourced commentary", especially that one because it is in no way "commentary". In fact every comment there is sourceable by the games themselves save maybe references terms "first person" and "overhead". If you believe that they each need sites, I will have to say I disagree here in that goes against what is allowable perWP:CITE. The only way to not have them is basically plaster the article with tons of statements with 9+ references after every few lines, something people here equally dislike. 陣 内 Jinnai 22:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't tell what Dragon Quest plays like, let alone play all the games to see if that is in fact true. Such generalizations about an entire series should be sourced. Anyone who has never played the series is not going to have any idea whether anything you've written is true, and thus should be cited. This isn't 1+1=2 territory. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 14:44, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * How do you want me to do this that won't create tons of citations across the body that will likely get it kicked out of a future FAC because "there are too many citations" since I've had to deal with that before. Since some of the items deal with some game sand some others, I can't just latch them into 1 single citation for each game. I'll have to do every game individually which will inevitably create tons of sentances with a lot of citations after it with the end result is imo it'll never please everyone here because another reviewer will come along and tell me to reduce those citations because they harm the flow, which the only way to do will be to make them general citations. It doesn't matter whether you've played the game; its still veriable and its still cited; WP:CITE doesn't require inline citations for non-contriviersial/non-quote statements. Other than some of the terminology, nothing there could be said to be contriverisal.
 * As for the terms, I can do some editing to remove some of the terminology as I can see your point with that. 陣 内 Jinnai 18:28, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I did find a secondary source to back up at least one of the sentances (after editing it) and I've removed the info on the type of perspectives (top-down and first-person). 陣 内 Jinnai 17:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - Looks good to me, but could someone finish merging Dragon Quest X before we finish here? It's impotent to know what the merged article will look like before final approval. Great work! Judgesurreal777 04:20, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hopefully, my recent work will warrant overturning the merge request, as I'd rather not have to worry about its merge. I figure it will only grow from there; I'm not terribly comfortable with merging articles into series articles. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 06:39, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It's being discussed now and may take some time to come to a full resolution. 陣 内 Jinnai 19:24, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well if its not going to be merged, then Support, the work done on this article has been extensive and of a high quality in keeping with FA standards. Judgesurreal777 23:43, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.