Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dragon Warrior/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:28, 12 September 2011.

Dragon Warrior

 * Nominator(s): MuZemike and 陣  内 Jinnai 20:06, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 

When this was brought up in July there were some issues with it. Since then, we have found more info, took another look at the sources again and in general went about improving the article in every way possible. There was also another independent copyedit.

As for the images, since this was brought up specifically last time and not addressed then, I will note that I believe the image with the Japanese/English side-by-side comparison does meet the NFCC specifically because the text does not really describe the graphical changes made. It only really describes the technical changes. You cannot explain how the king, knights and hero look by comparison to the NA couterpart without going into blatant orginal research as the text only mentions they were westernized in the most vaugist sense, something that cannot be shown without a side-by-side comparison.- 陣 内 Jinnai 20:06, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Problems with References by User:Odie5533}}
 * Problems with References: I noticed a number of problems with the references.
 * Publishers like GameSpot are sometimes wikilinked and sometimes not.
 * It is wikilinked in the first mention in the article and in the references section. Unless you want it linked more, I am not seeing an issue here. –MuZemike 22:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the references, and you did fix it by unwikilinking it in the ""gspot_consolehist_a" ref. --Odie5533 (talk) 23:03, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The citation to "1-up" has the wrong name for the publisher and links to the wrong Wikipedia article. This problem occurs more than once, and is sometimes linked and sometimes not.
 * Should be 1UP.com, which is the proper name of the website. That has been fixed. –MuZemike 22:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * GamePro is linked twice in the references. Style appears to be only to link the first occurrence. One of the refs also lists United States while the other does not.
 * Square Enix Online → Square Enix Music Online
 * Fixed. –MuZemike 22:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * RPG Gamer is referenced, so is RPGamer. Pick one name for it.
 * The latter, "RPGamer" is the proper title of the site, so I went with that. –MuZemike 22:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * GameSpy is sometimes italicized, sometimes not, and never wikilinked.
 * From my look through the article, it is wikilinked on the first mention in the article and the first time in the references. –MuZemike 22:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You fixed this by changing work=GameSpy to publisher=GameSpy, which changes the italics. You also wikilinked it. That was the problem. --Odie5533 (talk) 23:03, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * GameSpy is web-only and not print, so it shouldn't have been italicized in the first place. –MuZemike 02:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The first occurrence of RPGamer in the article is not wikilinked, but the second is.
 * That should be fixed to where the only the first occurrences in the article body and in the references are linked. –MuZemike 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What makes The-Magicbox.com a reliable source? dqshrine.com?
 * Jinnai is addressing that below. –MuZemike 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * EDIT1: Ref "Dragon Warrior I & II for Game Boy Color Review. GameSpot. 2000. Retrieved April 10, 2008." is incomplete. The full posting date and the author's name are available from the link.
 * Fixed. –MuZemike 22:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ref38, "Horii, Yuji (November 2007).", doesn't say what publication it is from. It also links to South San Francisco, but it is not the first occurrence in the refs.
 * Sorry, that should have been Nintendo Power. Added. –MuZemike 22:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * EDIT2: Famitsu and GamePro should be italicized in the references as they are italicized in the article.
 * Fixed. –MuZemike 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "Dragon Warrior I and II Official Strategy Guide" and "Dragon Warrior I & II Official Strategy Guide" are both referenced. Pick either and or &.
 * Fixed. –MuZemike 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ref 8: "Dragon Quest: Sentinel of the Starry Skies" → "Dragon Quest: Sentinel of the Starry Skies"
 * Fixed. –MuZemike 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ref 52: "The Art of Dragon Quest" → "The Art of Dragon Quest"
 * Fixed. –MuZemike 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ref 56: "Dragon Warrior Explorer's Handbook" → "Dragon Warrior Explorer's Handbook"
 * While I don't find it clear that "Instruction Manual", "Instruction Booklet", etc. should also be italicized along with the title in every case, the whole thing is currently italicized. –MuZemike 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ref 116: "Clone Warriors: RPGs Inspired by Dragon Quest" → "Clone Warriors: RPGs Inspired by Dragon Quest"
 * Fixed. –MuZemike 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's all for now. --Odie5533 (talk) 21:43, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Got some of the issues above (Diff: [). Will get the others later as I am busy at the moment with other stuff. –[[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 22:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * All the other ones (aside from the sources, which are being discussed below) should now be fixed (Diff: ). –MuZemike 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Replies about sources:
 * The magicbox - They are cited for the news and content by a number of reliable sources. Specifically:
 * Eurogamer
 * Gamespot
 * Edge Magazine
 * Silicornera
 * Anime News Network.
 * In several instances they are noted for translating info from Famitsu specifically.
 * The Eurogamer article used them only for their translation, not actual reporting information. Gamespot is a forum post (!), Edge doesn't say what they use Magic Box for, Siliconera is a comment made on a blog post (!), first ANN is where they posted pictures, and the second ANN is the only one that helps establish any reliability. I found some better citations, and I am now inclined to believe they are reliable. --Odie5533 (talk) 23:46, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's tough looking for them even with a filtered google search because so many entries are about the movie The Magic Box or some litteral or metaphysical magic box. >_< 陣  内 Jinnai 00:07, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I should also add that ABC News cited it upon Halo 3's release. –MuZemike 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * DQshrine - per the note at WikiProject Square Enix it is published in a gaming encyclopedia by a reknowned expert. Specifically, the site was listed in the bibliography in Encyclopedia of Play in Today's Society by Rodney P. Carlisle, a "Professor Emeritus" at Rutgers University. 陣 内 Jinnai 23:14, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds reliable to me. --Odie5533 (talk) 23:46, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Could you please clean up the rationales used on File:Dragon quest battle 2.png and File:Dq comparison side.png? It's difficult to judge the usages when there are two separate rationales for the same use. J Milburn (talk) 12:08, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed the former. Will do the latter if MuZemike doesn't deal with it later. 陣 内 Jinnai 13:44, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The characters section is so small! I'm amazed it has it own subsections! Any chance of expansion in that section? or getting rid of the subsections? because it clearly fails 1(b) in the featured article criteria-SCB &#39;92 (talk) 17:53, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * And are all these red wikilinks necessary?-SCB &#39;92 (talk) 18:00, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Removed the section headers. There is really nothing more we can add. I was shocked we were able to find as much as we did.
 * As for redlinks, I removed 2 of them. I used the ill for another (her birthname is translated as Emi Nagashima, the romaji of the Japanese link. The Tokyo Strings Ensemble i would wager would meet the GNG if anyone could find Japanese sources. 陣 内 Jinnai 19:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Both image rationales have been taken care of. 陣 内 Jinnai 19:16, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * After seeing some video game articles, I suggest the Characters section should be merged as a subsection into the plot section-SCB &#39;92 (talk) 11:50, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. 陣 内 Jinnai 16:11, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: I won't have the chance to review the article, but I thought I'd mention a problem that I noticed after a brief skim: there's only one review of the game's initial release, and it's for the NA version. Retrospective reviews and awards are fine, but surely more contemporary material is available. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 07:46, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. I even checked for reviews of it in Magazines like Dragon which are dedicated to RPGs (mostly tablestop, but they also covered video game ones) and they never mentioned it. At this point in history, RPGs were a new thing. Even Famitsu, Japans premeire video game magazine, does not have review scores on it because its so old. There just weren't any video game magazines back then. 陣 内 Jinnai 14:06, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. There is a lot of good stuff here, but the article is not yet comprehensive.  I recommend trying to track down Chris Kohler's book Powerup: How Japanese Video Games Gave the World an Extra Life, which contains more information on how both Toriyama and Sugiyama became attached to the project and which tells of how the game looked like it was going to be a failure when first released in Japan. Indrian (talk) 04:07, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I put that book, as well as a few others on order (it's been a long while since I bought books on video games, anyways, at least not since early this year); hopefully, it won't be any more than a week until I get them. –MuZemike 06:38, 12 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose I found a number of sources that directly attribute the game's success to a marketing campaign run in Shonen Jump. also states "Dragon Quest was so popular that the Tokyo government demanded that Enix not release new games on school days after children across the country skipped school en masse to line up for the latest version." I'm not sure the 4 lines in the legacy section do the game justice. I am opposing based on criteria 1a, 1b, 1c, 2 (MoS), and 2c. 1b/c were just briefly addressed, so here are the other problems:
 * 1a) Comma usage is bad everywhere: "Players control a young hero, who sets out" "players are presented with a menu, which allows them" "Reviewers said that, while Final Fantasy has been"
 * The discussion of the menu deals with batt saving for NA. To properly understand this paragraph, readers must read the note. The paragraph should be understandable without reading the note and so the information in the note should be integrated into the text.
 * "If players choose to start a new quest, they may give the hero any name they wish, as long as they use no more than eight letters in the NES version or four kana characters on the Japanese version. The hero's name has an effect on his initial ability scores and their statistical growth over the game's course." → "When starting a quest, players may specify a name for their hero, and depending on the characters in the name, the game will change the hero's initial ability scores and statistical growth for the game." I think listing out the different restrictions for chosen names is a bit overkill.
 * Jinnai made changes here. Does that sound better? Also, keep in mind that I integrated the stuff that now follows from the "Notes". –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "After receiving some items and gold, the hero sets out on his quest." his quest to destroy the Dragonlord? to find the Balls of Light? to go to White Castle? Is this information deliberately withheld from the reader or do players know the purpose of their quest early on in the game?
 * No, that was not the purpose, but I can see how it can be missed. That has been clarified. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "The status displays present information and statistics to the player." Sentence appears to be extraneous as it is repeated in the next sentence.
 * Fixed by Jinnai here. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "With the exception of a the Dragonlord's" extra "a"
 * That was fixed (can't locate the diff right now); I also shortened it to "Except the Dragonlord's...". –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "if his HP are low" "when his HP is low" I think HP is used as an abstract noun to refer to health rather than hit points, so "HP is low" would be correct.
 * Fixed by Jinnai here. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * MP is never explained or wikilinked
 * It is wikilinked under magic point and abbreviated immediately after. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "However, players has limited inventory" players have limited inventory space
 * Fixed by Jinnai here. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "to search beneath them" what? I've never played the game. This is confusing and probably should be deleted unless you want to explain it more.
 * Changed to "search beneath their feet". –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "characters face forward so players must choose a command" forward, so
 * Fixed. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd like to note that the plot section is brilliantly written. I noticed "Ball of Light" is used once here, and should probably be changed to Balls of Light since it's only used once in the article.
 * A minor nitpick on my part, but both singular and plural are interchangeably used, depending on the version of the game. Anyways, Jinnai fixed that here. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note 5 should come at the first mention of Erdrick in the plot section
 * Fixed by Jinnai here. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "However, when he arrives" when the prophet arrives or when the descendent is prophesied to arrive?
 * Fixed by Jinnai here. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it possible to win without rescuing the princess?
 * It probably is, but it's not relevant to the article, nor is it necessary to be added (it has now been added twice by an IP). That has been removed. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "Dragon Warrior debuted at No. 7 on its bimonthly "Top 30" top NES games list in November 1989." What is its? This entire paragraph is confusing to follow.
 * "most of which can readily be found on the Internet." should probably be deleted, not sure if it says this in the source, but even if it does, I'd be skeptical that most of the existing rom hacks are very easy to find on the internet.
 * Here is the direct quote from Retro Gamer:
 * Most of the hacks that can be easily found on the Internet are NES or SNES titles, and this selection reflects this bias.
 * –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The source is saying that most hacks that are easily found on the internet are for NES or SNES titles. This does not mean that most NES and SNES hacks are easily found on the internet. --Odie5533 (talk) 20:44, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine, removed. –MuZemike 21:30, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "many of the techniques used were intended to make up for hardware limitations; despite advances in technology that render some of those unnecessary, many of them have become conventions still used in today's RPGs." techniques used for what? Also, it is not clear what these conventions were.
 * Changed to "...many of the development techniques used were intended to make up for hardware limitations, but contemporary RPG developers continue to use them despite technological advances that would normally render them unnecessary." –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * semicolon usage: "Nintendo Power ranked it as third out of five upon its original release; later rating it the 140th-best game made on a Nintendo System in their Top 200 Games list in 2006."
 * Can't locate the diff, but it has been fixed. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Comma splice: "IGN reviewed the game years later and gave it a 7.8 out of 10, RPGamer's Bill Johnson gave it a 4 out of 5 overall score."
 * Added an "and" there. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This sentence doesn't make sense: "In response to Japanese youth's being arrested while waiting for its release, Quartermann, reviewer for Electronic Gaming Monthly, noted that the game was not "that special at all"."
 * It was a bit wordy, but I shortened the middle part to "Electronic Gaming Monthly's Quartermann said...". The mercurial editor wrote it in the "Gaming Gossip" section, as the third installment was being released in Japan, and the first installment was about to be released in North America. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * NES' is used, and so is NES's
 * Changed it to the former. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I think this semicolon should be a colon, but check with someone else on this: "1UP.com explained why the series was not immensely popular at first in North America; American console gamers were not used to the idea of RPGs, and they said that would take a decade for the genre to be "flashy enough to distract from all of those words they made you read"."
 * article changes its style of forming possessives. most of the article uses only s', except here: "GameCritics' Chi Kong Lui" "similarities to ICOM Simulations's"
 * Hopefully, they're all changed to s'; I did a search of the text and found nothing else that needed changing. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Should probably be "the NES": "Horii believed that NES was the ideal venue for Dragon Quest because"
 * Fixed. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "can easily kill unprepared players – something in which Gamasutra described"
 * Changed it to a semicolon and a separate complete sentence to avoid any convoluted grammar issues. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "Horii used bridges to signify a change in difficulty and a level progression with" → "Horii used bridges to signify a change in difficulty and used a level progression with"
 * Those sentences were split into two separate ones. These were two completely separate concepts in which Horii used (i.e. players do not increase levels by crossing bridges; only the difficulty level increases). –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I prefer listing the Japanese name first, and the American one in parenthesis: "for the Super Famicom" "for the NES (known in Japan as the Family Computer or Famicom)"
 * Made that fix in the lead. The first mention of "Nintendo Entertainment System", accompanied with the common abbreviation "NES", appears in the first mention in the article's body. –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * 1c) The immortal words of one Quinton Klabon, while immortal, are not useful for an encyclopedia. This would be akin to citing the letters section of a magazine. "In survey response, Gamasutra cited Dartmouth College's Quinton Klabon as saying that Dragon Warrior translated the D&D experience to video games and has set the genre standards to levels that have not changed since."
 * Removed. Upon a further look, I do agree with your assessment, as it's basically nothing more than a user-generated comment that Gamasutra decided to publish; it neither confers reliability nor relevance. –MuZemike 22:31, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * 2) There are multiple MoS violations for WP:ENDASH (pseudo Elizabethan English, pseudo-Elizabethan English, pseudo–Elizabethan English) "described as simplistic –or even Spartan and archaic – years"
 * It should he hyphenated, which was all changed here. –MuZemike 22:31, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * 2c) MOS:DATE Citation switches date styles for this one: Andrew Vestal (1998-11-02). "Other Game Boy RPGs". GameSpot. Retrieved 2009-11-18.
 * And another date style here: Bailey, Kat (February 2010). "The Uncanny Valley of Love: The challenges and rewards of crafting a video game romance". 1UP.com. Retrieved 12 September 2011.
 * Fixed. Please note that this was added during the FAC. –MuZemike 22:31, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * --Odie5533 (talk) 13:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "players are presented with a menu, which allows them" is proper grammar usage, as pointed out in the previous FAC, as "which" needs to be preceded by a comma. Unless you suggest they should be changed to "that" or "in which" without a comma. Can we be a bit consistent here? –MuZemike 21:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyways, most of the issues have been fixed, with the exception of a couple of them (Diff: ). –MuZemike 05:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.