Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/DuPont Manual High School/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 10:48, 16 May 2009.

DuPont Manual High School

 * Nominator(s): Chiliad22 (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

This is essentially a joint nomination for myself and. This is a high school article, yes, but it's a school with 100+ years of history and what I think is a somewhat interesting story to tell, even if you've never heard of the school. A word about the pictures, they're all GPL so there's no licensing concern, but I'm not going to claim they're wonderful artistic shots. They're the best I could do and I think they do illustrate the things the article talks about. Lastly, I modelled some elements of this article such as layout, infobox and citation of the individual alums after Plano Senior High School, the only FA on a school like Manual. So before objecting on stylistic grounds, consider checking that article too. Chiliad22 (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * Per the MOS, titles in the references shouldn't be in all capitals, even when they are in the original
 * Need to be consistent on the use or non use of p. and pp. as abbreviations for pages in the refs (current ref 16 has no p, most others have p or pp)
 * Please spell out abbreviations in the notes. Yes, they are linked, but you don't want your readers to leave your article, they might never return
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I fixed the first two. I only saw one abbreviation in the notes ("NFL") and I fixed that, let me know if there are others I'm missing. --Chiliad22 (talk) 18:02, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That was the one I noticed. Looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:11, 3 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose This article is not comprehensive - it is missing topics and some of what is mentioned is covered too vaguely:
 * Details about the building and campus should probably be covered in their own section. More details about the expansion of the school are needed: how much did the various expansions cost? Were there public debates about the necessity of the expansions? Were there problem and/or delays in the process?
 * I created a section and added some more info. I'll add the cost of the 1967 and 1971 expansions tomorrow when I can check the microfilm. The only thing approaching a delay was that the proposed name of the 1971 gym hit a snag because it was to be named after a former coach who was still alive, but naming facilities after living people was against school district rules. The board, however, voted an exception for Manual's new gym. I deemed that too trivial for inclusion in the article though... I couldn't imagine anyone but alums caring. There have been no major expansions since 1978, and the newspapers never reported that anyone objected to the earlier expansions. In 1968, when the razings began, historical preservation was still in its infancy and the vast majority of Americans just saw it purely as progress to raze a block of old houses to add new educational facilities. Nowadays there'd probably be protests, but it really wasn't a big deal 40 years ago. I'll re-read the stories tomorrow to make sure there wasn't any protest, but I don't recall anything of the sort being reported on. --Chiliad22 (talk) 20:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have added costs for all projects since 1971. As for the new gym in 1971 and the athletic fields in 1967, I have looked at the newspaper stories of the era and they omit the cost. It's also not mentioned in the book on Manual's history, so I don't think either cost can be found at this point. As for public reaction to the plan that added athletic fields and built Noe and YPAS, all that could be added is the newspapers reported many parents and teachers in 1967 were pleased with the proposal because it promised to ease overcrowding. --Chiliad22 (talk) 18:43, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The "Academics" section is written from the perspective of someone familiar with US high schools and needs to be explained in greater depth. For example:
 * In 1980, Standardized test scores ranked Manual 23rd out of the 24 high schools in the county. - What standardized tests?
 * Done. --Chiliad22 (talk) 20:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no definition and explanation of what a "magnet school" is in the article.
 * Yes, there is... in the intro it says "Manual became a magnet school, allowing students from throughout the district to apply to five specialized programs of study, or magnets." Is there a way you think it could be written more clearly?
 * I would explain what those specialized programs were in addition to the fact that it is unusual for students from across a district to be able to attend. Awadewit (talk) 14:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Math/Science/Technology magnet offers accelerated courses in math, science and computer programming, and a communications magnet allows students to learn and work in radio, television and newspaper production. - What does "accelerated" mean? We need to give the readers some benchmarks - what do the students study? I'm left to guess.
 * I cited what sorts of courses students in that magnet are required to take. Hopefully that clarifies what they're studying. --Chiliad22 (talk) 20:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is better, but it is my understanding that magnet schools have a far better curriculum than the average high school (hence their desirability), so I'm not sure that the article adequately conveys this yet. Are there any sources that compare the science courses at Manual with the science courses in the rest of the district, for example?

Awadewit (talk) 14:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's kind of a misnomer that magnet schools have an inherently better curriculum. Maybe it was true for the early Magnet schools (including Manual) but in 2009 many schools call themselves magnet schools but they aren't particuarly good academically. Magnet simply means the students from throughout the district can apply for specialized "magnet" programs - the actual quality and academic intensity of a magnet school's classes could be lower than a traditional school, it varies widely. It could probably be sourced that Manual has better science scores and competition performance than any other school in the district and state, but there's been no study I know of showing this is because of the magnet program or its curriculum. --Chiliad22 (talk) 17:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think this should be explained in the article, then. If Manual used to have a better curriculum than the rest of the district, but now doesn't, that is important to note. Awadewit (talk) 14:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Admission to these three magnet programs are decided based on academic merit. - What determines this merit? How well does one have to do?
 * Standards vary based on the number of applicants in any given year, there's no real score a student has to get to get into Manual. I tried to clear this up in the article, and have reformatted the paragraphs so there's a paragraph just about admissions in the "academics" section. --Chiliad22 (talk) 20:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is much clearer. Thank you. Awadewit (talk) 14:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It is unclear to me exactly what students learn in the performing arts school - do they only take arts classes? Do they take a combination of arts and academic classes? What kinds of arts classes are available? Are the classes taught by artists-in-residence?
 * I explained what they can study at YPAS. The article explained they take academic classes students too, but I've made it more clear. The classes are taught by public school teachers who specialize in the arts.
 * Did the part about the teachers get added in? Awadewit (talk) 14:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * To see their actual job description, read this. I was having a hard time figuring out how to explain this without descending into district policy mumbo jumbo, but I've added something. --Chiliad22 (talk) 17:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That is not really the right source, is it? It doesn't really describe who is doing the actual teaching now. Is there anything better? Awadewit (talk) 14:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There is nothing in the article about the school's budget or its relationship with the local school board.
 * There really is nothing unique about Manual's budget or its relationship with the school board, so it's not reported on by newspapers or written about in books. The school district gives it a certain number of teachers, custodial workers, etc. with the same salaries and funding as every other school in the district, the principal works at the discretion of the school board. Other than saying Manual is a part of Jefferson County Public Schools and budgeted the same way any other JCPS high school is, there's really nothing to say about its budget. It would probably original research to do even that much, you'd have to cite primary documents from the school district. There just aren't newspaper articles written about the school budget ever, unless some sort of irregularity is suspected I guess, but that's never happened with Manual. Note that FAs on colleges, such as Dartmouth College and Duke University, don't have budget info... and with those colleges that info probably actually exists out there in secondary sources. --Chiliad22 (talk) 20:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Those college articles should discuss the budget, too. I'm surprised that there aren't any newspaper articles about the budget. Usually, for example, when the budget gets cut, there are articles about that. Are you absolutely sure there is nothing? Even if there are no newspaper sources, it is acceptable to cite a primary source to cite something as uncontroversial as the total budget for the school. We need to know the ballpark figure of how much it takes to run the school. Awadewit (talk) 14:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There are articles about the district-wide budget, but there are hundreds of schools in this district. I've searched for every news story about Manual in the past 10 years that uses the word "budget" and none give the dollar budget for the school. There also probably isn't really even an official school budget as you're thinking of it; the district, not the school, pays all the teachers regardless of where they teach, and they're paid on a predetermined scale based on degrees earned and seniority, and there's also a similar scale for non-teachers. Payroll is seperate of individual high schools, it's not like Manual's principle is sitting there each year figuring out how many raises she can fit into the budget, it's all done at the district level and the budget of individual schools isn't really considered. Note that Stuyvesant High School, another FA, also doesn't discuss the budget. As no other similar FAs discuss budget, I don't think this is a fair standard to hold this article to, especially considering a conventional budget for the school probably doesn't exist and would have to be extrapolated based on district accounting reports, which I consider to be original research. --Chiliad22 (talk) 17:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Usually districts know how much it takes to run a school - it is how they decide to shut down a school, for example. However if you cannot find anything, you cannot find anything. Awadewit (talk) 14:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Besides athletics, what other kinds of extracurricular activities are there? Is there a newspaper? Drama club? Music of any kind? Radio or TV station?
 * I've added more information about music. It's not an extracurricular but rather students actually get class credit for it. The TV and newspaper are covered in the academics section as those to are part of the curriculum. Academic club performance is covered in the "academics" section. I don't really think the other extracurricular activities are particularly encyclopedic or interesting to readers... most schools have glee clubs, Fellowship of Christian Athletes, et al. --Chiliad22 (talk) 20:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Extracurricular activities are usually a large part of high schools, as students dedicate hours to them every week. We need to cover these in a little more depth. The only reason not to cover them is because they are not a part of this high school, but that doesn't seem to be case. Awadewit (talk) 14:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I hope these suggestions are helpful. Awadewit (talk) 18:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Image review - File:Manual high school.jpg - Is the author of this image also the uploader? We need to contact the uploader and check. Right now, it is unclear. Awadewit (talk) 18:16, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Amazingly, the uploader logged in and clarified. --Chiliad22 (talk) 20:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.