Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Early life of Jan Smuts/archive1

Early life of Jan Smuts
Self nomination.

This article (part of a series on the life of Jan Smuts) has really come about solely through the work of User:Bastin8 and myself. It has recently been through Peer Review (Peer_review/Jan_Smuts%27s_youth), suggestions made there have been acted upon. I think that it's pretty comprehensively sourced, NPOV, and some pictures have been added (given the subject matter it was pretty hard to find more - South African farming families of that era didn't have many photographs taken).

I think that the article is now as comprehensive as it can be; your opinion is welcome on whether it is good enough for FA status.

X damr talk 23:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Object - The prose isn't quite up to standard, in my estimation. While saying "this article" isn't precicely against No Self References, it is pushing it, and I believe it to be against style. I tend to expect high-school reports to begin with "this paper is about...", but I expect encyclopedia articles to be a little more eloquent, stating this without using the awkward self reference.  Furthermore, there are a number of paragraphs in the article which are too short... these should be developed a little further.  The prose itself should be more flowing... the text currently feels a little stilted, simply listing events one after the other with no interconnectedness.
 * As a second objection, I feel that the article could stand to have a few more references than it currently does. Think of the poor college student, trying to do a research paper, but unable to reference wikipedia itself.  He's going to want to know what he CAN reference... and providing those in a FA is critical.
 * On a third, more picky note, the lead section should probably be at least three paragraphs long for an article this size. Fieari 23:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I admit that I've had some qualms about the 'This article encompasses ...', the problem is that I want to precisely define the content of the article (it is one of a series after all). I'll give it some thought...
 * Ok, I think that your self-referencing concern has been addressed.  X damr  talk


 * As far as references go, if you can suggest more incidents etc which you think need referencing then I'd be grateful. It is no problem to add them.  I thought 22/23 references for someone's childhood was reasonably adequate, but if not then I'll try to sort that out as well.


 * Many thanks for your comments,  X damr  talk 00:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment Fieari has been invited to review his vote in light of recent article changes but has not yet responded.   X damr  talk 14:20, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment leaning towards Oppose. First, according to Manual of Style (biographies):
 * Styles and honorifics which are derived from noble title, including The Most Noble, The Most Honourable, The Right Honourable, and The Honourable, should not be included in the text inline but may be legitimately discussed in the article proper. (see Tony Blair for an example]]
 * And second, consider renaming the article Early life of Jan Smuts. It's this format that is the most widely used in Wikipedia. Thank you. CG 08:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Honorific concern addressed, many thanks -  X damr  talk 11:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you, but you didn't answer to my move request. You just created a redirect. CG 13:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I've also made a search and I found Early life of George W. Bush, Early life of Hugo Chávez, Early life of Jimi Hendrix, Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr., Early life of Pope Benedict XVI and Early life of Pope Pius XII but with nothing like "someone's youth" format. CG 13:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok then, if that's the general style (even if it isn't any sort of official/semi-official recommendation) then I'm happy to go along with it. Page moved.


 * X damr talk 13:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose this time. The lead is inappropriate for the article. First, no mention of the title in the lead. Second, half of the lead describes his political career which is off topic. I suggest you take for an example Early life of Hugo Chávez. There's a sentence about who is Hugo Chavez, but most of the title describes his early life. Therefore the lead picture should be a one taken during his early life. CG 15:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Right Honourable isn't a title in the sense of 'Sir' or 'Lord'. It is typically bestowed upon those sworn of the Privy Council.  It is used in circumstances of extreme formality only, not in the same way as a title from a knighthood, for example; ordinarily you do not see it used.


 * As for including biographical details beyond the immediate scope of the article, I've always thought it important to set some kind of context. I don't believe there to be any wikipedia policy which mandates against being 'off-topic', nor do I understand this to be a criterion for FA status.  If articles are to be 'stand alone' then it's important to give an outline of exactly who the man was, before considering the particluar aspect of his life that the page covers.


 * But, nevertheless, many thanks for your suggestions,   X damr  talk 18:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment CG has been invited to review his vote in light of recent article changes but has not yet responded.   X damr  talk 14:20, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Support. I suppose I cannot really think of a much better resource about the early life of Jan Smuts... Batmanand | Talk 17:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Support. The only criticism is that of lacking pictures.  I've added two (a map and one of Christ's College) to illustrate context.  However, when judging the article, one must remember that a rural family of Smuts' sort, in the nineteenth century would not produce a good deal of photographs, nor would a man of Smuts' character necessarily wish to be photographed particularly often.  Of course, if one can find any more, they should be added, and they would be doubly valuable. Bastin 19:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Another comment. The section "Spreading his wings" is too editorial. Could you change the name? And isn't there really any picture of Jan Smuts as a youth? CG 20:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No, the earliest that I am aware of date from his time as State Attorney of the Transvaal, outwith the scope of this article.


 * I also disagree with your objections to the 'Spreading his wings' title. It captures very well the thrust of the section, ie. the expanded opportunites open to Smuts as he moved to Stellenbosch and then onto Cambridge.  Personal taste, but I'm inclined to leave it.  I think that this kind of issue is more a question that needs consensus on the article talk page than a question of fulfilling FAC criteria, but if you can get consensus for change then that's fine.


 * X damr talk 21:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 *  Object —1a. Needs a copy-edit by fresh eyes to come up to the required "professional" standard. It's not bad, though. Pity that the lead exposes little problems.
 * The early life of Jan Smuts spans the first 25 years (1870-1895) of the South African and Commonwealth statesman, military leader, and philosopher. He served many positions from Boer General during the Boer War to Field Marshal during World War II to Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa. He played a leading part in the post-war settlements at the end of both world wars, making significant contributions towards the creation of the Royal Air Force, the League of Nations, the United Nations and the British Commonwealth.

Do you know where to locate good copy-editors? Tony 02:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "Spanned"?
 * The years in parentheses interrupt the flow in the very place you want to make an impact. Why not relocate to the end of the sentence: "... philosopher, from 1870 to 1895.
 * "Served IN many positions", and a comma after "positions" would make for much easier reading. (The use of commas needs an audit throughout: often more are needed, and sometimes fewer, e.g., after "Malmesbury" in the Childhood section, where there are already two other commas in a not-very-long sentence.
 * "Post-war" seems redundant—it's in the subsequent wording.
 * "Towards" could be just "to"?


 * The current version of the introduction was written by CG, following his comments above. He felt that the intro, as it then stood, incorporated too much 'off topic' material - that mentioning his political and military life in any depth wasn't appropriate for an article about Smuts's youth.  Does the previous version seem better to you?


 * Jan Christian Smuts, OM, CH, ED, KC, FRS (May 24, 1870 – September 11, 1950) was a prominent South African and Commonwealth statesman, military leader, and philosopher. He served as a Boer General during the Boer War, a British General during the First World War and was appointed Field Marshal by King George VI during the Second World War.  In addition to various cabinet appointments, he served as Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa from 1919 until 1924 and from 1939 until 1948.  From 1917 to 1919 he was one of five members of the British War Cabinet, helping to create the Royal Air Force. He played a leading part in the post-war settlements at the end of both world wars, making significant contributions towards the creation of the League of Nations and the United Nations.  He did much to redefine the relationship between Britain and the Dominions and Colonies, leading to the formation of the British Commonwealth.


 * Jan Smuts was born in 1870, the second son of a traditional Boer farming family. By rural tradition, the eldest son would be the only child to receive a full formal education ... etc, etc, etc


 * I'll admit that the present version doesn't scan too well for me either.


 * X damr talk 02:56, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm sorry but I didn't tell you that I suck in English ;( However you could notice that I didn't actually write the lead. I took chunks of the old version and combined them with punctuations, "and"s and "from...to"s, in addition, I took as an example the Early life of Hugo Chávez's lead. But I'm still convinced that the lead should incorporate just a small summary about his whole life and achievements because the lead should summarise the article and should not include materials not found in the article (check the guideline. So I'm encouraging you to copy-edit, even rewrite this part, but no to expand it. Thank you. CG 20:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Change to weak support: the prose has certainly improved. Childhood contains a very short, very long, then very short paragraph. Perhaps the first shorty is hard to escape, but the last one might be integrated into the next section. That would avoid the overtly narrative, story-telling device of building readers' expectations for the subsequent section. Throughout, you might see if the paragraphing can be smoothed out a little. One thing I noticed was "This dictated that it was on the first son that the family expectations fell; it was he that the family would put through ...". Two thematic equatives in a row ("It was X"); it's a "marked" expression that carries a specific meaning (= this was the only thing). Two in a row might be laboured. Tony 01:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you Xdamr. You've just reverted my suggestions in the lead without even discussing it and you didn't respond to my earlier post. I won't revert it back, but could you take in consideration my suggestions? CG 08:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Your comments are of course welcome and are taken seriously. The fact is that, unlike your other suggestions, I don't agree with your rationale for cutting down the lead.  As I have commented above, I consider it to be essential to give some idea of who Jan Smuts was before launching into a detailed examination of his life.  You have pointed to the Early life of Hugo Chávez, but this is neither a Featured Article, nor has it been recently nominated as one.  It was last considered back in February, and, as I'm sure you are aware, the standards for FA status are getting tighter all the time - if I were considering the article today, I'm bound to say that I would consider the lead to be too short.


 * Other voters have not flagged up the lead as a problem. Reverting back to the previous version has satisfied the objection of another voter.  I am of course sorry if the lead issue makes it impossible for you to support the article.  I would hope that you might be able to overlook it, given that it is not an issue which has aroused too much comment.


 * X damr talk 19:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)