Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Early life of Keith Miller/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:01, 20 June 2009.

Early life of Keith Miller

 * Nominator(s):  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) 02:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Subarticle of Keith Miller, a famous Australian Test cricketer, footballer and air force fighter pilots. Covers his life up to his enlistment in 1940 (aged about 20)...  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) 02:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments from the lead.
 * Links shouldn't be bolded per WP:MOS.
 * The first sentence is a bit clunky. I suggest: "The early life of Keith Miller, an Australian Test cricketer and Australian rules footballer, encompasses about 20 years between 1919 and 1940, when he joined the Militia (army reserve) during World War II."
 * The youngest of four children of Scottish descent - "Younger" &rarr; "youngest"?
 * Due to his size, Miller yearned to be a horse racing jockey. - I see what you're going for here, but surely not everyone his size becomes a horse jockey?
 * still only 162 cm tall - How many inches is that?
 * Tweaked teh above  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') 08:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The lead seems too focused on cricket, rather than his life in general. Where was he born? What was his personality? Who were his parents?
 * Added birth....Well he was notable for playing sport, not schoolwork, and I'm not sure what else there is to say. I didn't put his parents in the lead as they are just normal people, unlike and early life for McCain or GWB, there is no notables in the ancestry. Personality, I don't think it is that important but even then he didn't develop his anti-authority outlook and party antics until he went to war. After that he said "Cricket is not pressure. A Messerschmitt up you arse is" and was completely carefree because nothing compares to war.  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') 08:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Much better, thanks. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 15:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

– Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 04:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Support Comments  from More later... Dabomb87 (talk) 16:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unlink the dates in the references.
 * "from his birth on 28 November 1919 up until 20 August 1940" Spot the redundant word.
 * Do we really need a link to World War II? What in that article is necessary for readers' understanding in this article?
 * "Born in the town of Sunshine on the outskirts of Melbourne, Miller's early life was dominated by his interest in sport" Dangling modifier. "Miller's early life" was not born in Sunshine, although Miller was.
 * Is there anyway you can explain what "first-grade" and "first-class" debuts are, and how they are different?
 * "In one noted performance" Obviously it was noted, otherwise you wouldn't put it in the article.
 * "rearguard " WP:JARGON, please explain and/or link.
 * Apart from WWII, I changed the rest. If I hadn't the next guy will complain... but I don't have strong opinion  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) 04:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about it; I don't really care that much. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "His shots did not travel a long distance" Could be "His shots did not travel far"
 * "Miller was a mediocre student, because he did little study and focused his energy on sport." I think it would make more sense if the clause order was switched: "Because he did little study and focused his energy on sport, Miller was a mediocre student."
 * "In 1939–40, Miller was selected" Is this a season?
 * "while Clem Hill also predicted a bright future for the Victorian." "while"-->and. Not sure what "also" is doing there.
 * "making 37, one and 24 in his remaining" "one"-->1 (got to keep it consistent) Dabomb87 (talk) 16:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed all of these. Normally numbers < 10 are spelt out, but is there a rule that if they are in a group then it is all numners? I'll have to keep that in mind  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) 02:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, specifically: "Comparable quantities should be all spelled out or all figures". Dabomb87 (talk) 04:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The early life of Keith Miller, an Australian Test cricketer and Australian rules footballer, encompasses almost 21 years, from his birth on 28 November 1919 until 20 August 1940. This article encompasses that exact range, but "the early life of Keith Miller" was not officially certified as ending on the latter date. No need to be afraid of stating what the article is doing rather than artificially pigeonholing him. Is a lede image of "Keith Miller in 1946" the best choice for an article covering his life up to 1940? Two sentences repeating the details of his siblings? Gladys is 12 while Sunshine is eleven kilometres. Miller grows 28 cm (11 in) (unexpanded and converted) while Sunshine is eleven kilometres (expanded and unconverted). Lifeblood flows, it doesn't "centre". Numerous other instances of poor phrasing suggest a copy-edit would be beneficial. Fivetypes (talk) 12:23, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Changed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) 05:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * What makes the following reliable sources?
 * http://stats.rleague.com/afl/seas/1940.html
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Removed it sources only a date, not importnat  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) 07:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments –
 * Early schooling: "Miller saw his first Melbourne Cup in 1926 at the age of seven and has been fascinated ever since." Hard for him to still be fascinated when he died in 2004.
 * Melbourne High School: "In addition to cricket and football, Miller also played baseball and competed in swimming." No need for "also" here.
 * Representative beginnings: Is Leaving year correctly capitalized?
 * "18-year old", One more hyphen needed.
 * "before being caught by future co-writer Richard Whitington from the bowling of Harold Cotton." I was confused by "future co-writer". I see from clicking the link that Whitington collaborated with Miller, but I think this needs to be made clearer.
 * Space needed after reference 45.
 * "Miller asked the umpire Bradman had caught a bump ball." Should "if" be in here somewhere?
 * Breakthrough into the VFL: Decapitalize first word of The Netherlands?  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 15:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) 07:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Rm the forgotten one  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) 01:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Support – Quite a solid article, and it's a nice read as well.  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 14:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Support - I've not read through the entire article, but there are no glaring issues in the first few sections, so I'll support. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 03:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Support A solid, comprehensive article. There are some minor issues that need addressing but none of them are deal breakers. Great work once again.
 * "anlea engineer and sportslover"? needs fixing but I am not sure what the correction should be
 * Fixed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "162 cm (64 in)" This should be "162 cm (5 ft 4 in) tall convert uses "ftin" to perform this calc. I have changed others but the article needs going over in full to ensure we get them all.
 * Fixed all  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "he scored 61 to ..." I would specify (and link) runs here.
 * Fixed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "11 km (6.8 mi) west of Melbourne’s city centre ..." is 6.8 mi too precise?
 * WE'll live. Both have two sig figs!  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Significant figures! I haven't seen them since Year 10 science class! -- Mattinbgn\talk 06:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "the inner-eastern middle-class Melbourne suburb ..." I would say "middle-class inner-eastern Melbourne suburb". Further, if possible and sources allow, specify that Sunshine was (and still is) a working class area. This would give the "middle class" part of your sentence about Elsternwick a little more context.
 * Fixed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "just 400 m (1310 ft) away ..." Should this be yards rather than feet?
 * Fixed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Miller often practised for hours by himself, putting a tennis ball inside a stocking, before suspending it from a clothes line and hitting it back and forth" This reads a little laboured to me, should it be split? Or perhaps "Miller often practised for hours by himself, hitting back and forth a tennis ball placed in a stocking and suspended from the clothes line."
 * Fixed. Used a semicolon  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "However, his lack of height made him turn to horseracing" Is "made" the right word here?
 * Fixed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If MHS has a Latin motto, wouldn't be better to include it and the translation, rather than mentioning just that the Eng. version is a translation. The MHS article lists the motto in English only.
 * Fixed/rm, I assumed Perry has made a mistake. Surely the motto pic is correct  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A mistake, by Perry, surely not!?! :-) -- Mattinbgn\talk 06:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "First XI" needs a link 11 (number)?
 * Fixed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "No. 6" or "number six" for batting order positions. This may need some discussion at WP:CRIC as it is a perennial topic.
 * In lieu of a convention, as long as it is consistent (which it is) I don;t think it matters.  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * class dunce ..." Not sure on this one, but isn't the usual phrasing "dunce of the class"
 * I didn't think so. Not sure  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not a dealbreaker in any sense. -- Mattinbgn\talk 06:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "from playing for Souths..." "Souths" is a Sydneyism, the Melbourne term is simply "South" I assume Perry is a NSWian and that is why he has used the term?
 * He's a lifelong Vic, worked for the Age...shocking I know.... I'm not sure about this  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Perry is a Victorian? My God! Regardless, "Souths" is a well-known shibboleth for Swans fans, allowing them to spot the Rugby League heretic. See here (at the bottom of the page) for an example. Of course, this is not a reliable source. -- Mattinbgn\talk 06:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "figures of 7/29 ..." Should this be 7 wickets for 29 runs (7/29) at the first instance.
 * Already in footnote  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "and collapsed to 5/6 ..." This is a little confusing given the different scoring terms used in Aust. compared to elsewhere. Perhaps expand?
 * Footnoted  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "which he lengthened by 10 cm (3.9 in) ..." "lengthened"? It doesn't read well to me, but if others are satisfied.
 * ''The thing is I already used "growth spurt" earlier in the sentence, so I can't use "grow" again. Is "rose" allowed?

 YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) paid editing=POV 06:08, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not really fussed, if you are happy with it as it is ... -- Mattinbgn\talk 06:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "28 cm (0.92 ft) ... " should be (11 in)
 * Fixed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Miller completed year 10 ..." "year 10" or "year ten" as in the lead. I prefer numerals as it is consistent with "year 9" etc.
 * Fixed number  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Miller was targeted by renowned enforcer Jack Dyer, known as Captain Blood." "targeted" how?, physically, I presume but the context is not clear.
 * Physically, although it didn't say whether with was a legal bump for cheap illegal punch when the umpire wasn't looking. The latter was very common in the pre-TV era  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "goal umpire" needs linking to something, but I am not sure what.
 * Fixed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "they did not make the playoffs." "playoffs" is an anachronistic Americanism. I would use "finals" with a link for context. There is an article about the 1940 season and this shows only one final was played, the Grand Final. -- Mattinbgn\talk 05:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Link. The article on the seasons links to a jargon page where it says that 4 made teh finals and the tables have a demarcation after the top 4. For some reason the prelim/semis aren't listed. HAve to ask teh AFL peopel  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 06:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose on an image concern: Other Images are verifiably in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 03:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * File:WMWoodfull.jpg: no source for this photo, or to verify that the photo is indeed taken in 1930 and under Australian copyright (taking note that the player has traveled extensively to UK for cricket matches and must have been interviewed/photographed there as well).
 * Removed  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) paid editing=POV 03:35, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Sandy Georgia (Talk) 18:49, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Jargon ... what is a bump ball? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:35, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.