Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Eastern brown snake/archive1

Eastern brown snake

 * Nominator(s): Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:23, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

This article is about a badass snake that is considered the world's second most venomous snake...except that it isn't...except that it sort of is. The ranking was based on a highly potent neurotoxin isolated from the venom...except that in people it has almost no neurotoxic effects...however, it is responsible for most deaths from snakebite in Australia due to the severe damage it does to the human circulatory system. Anyway, have a read and let me know what to fix. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:23, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Comments from JM
Only have a few minutes, so won't get far.
 * "First described by André Marie Constant Duméril in 1854, the adult eastern brown snake" A little jarring: "the adult eastern brown snake" was "first described"...
 * I split the sentence Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:01, 2 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "cardiovascular system—coagulopathy, haemorrhage, cardiovascular collapse and cardiac arrest. One of the main components of the venom is the prothrombinase complex pseutarin-C" A little technical for the lead; perhaps you could introduce some wikilinks?
 * linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:15, 2 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "gave it the name Diemenia textilis in 1896" This is presumably explicitly "resurrecting" Duméril's name? Perhaps worth mentioning?
 * Not quite. He just recognised it was the oldest valid name, as evidenced by having it at the top of the list of synonyms. Hence added this acknowledgement, with link to Principle of Priority Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:27, 2 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "and reinforced by American herpetologist" Gramatically, it's not clear what was reinforced. "and Worrell's claim was bolstered by American herpetologist" or something, perhaps?
 * I went with "upheld" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:03, 2 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Perhaps Pseudonaja ohnoi should be in the taxobox? Same with the rejected subspecies?
 * added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:29, 2 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "The Dharawal and Awabakal held ceremonies for the eastern brown snake" I'd definitely like to hear more!
 * so would I - this is proving elusive.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:27, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Ok, got to dash. Will hopefully be back! Josh Milburn (talk) 16:34, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Back for a few more minutes... Sorry for the bittiness...
 * Any sexual dimorphism?
 * doesn't appear to be - but nothing outright states there isn't either (frustratingly) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Could you perhaps explain what "divided" means in the context of scales?
 * It is mentioned under anal scale but added footnote Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "and arid scrublands and farmland, as well as more arid areas that are intermittently flooded" More arid than arid? I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering if it says what you meant it to.
 * well, yeah, that'd be more desertlike as there'd not be enough water for scrub. changed to "drier" anyway Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * " engage in 'ritual combat' with" Why the 'single quotes'?
 * don't recall but unnecessary and removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * What do the eggs look like? Just little white orbs?
 * I think so but need a source describing them... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:52, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Should you provide Fahrenheit conversions for the temperatures?
 * yes/done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:44, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Stopping again! Josh Milburn (talk) 17:07, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * File:Eastern Brown Snake eating an Eastern Blue tongue. (8235988337).jpg Could we crop out or clone out the watermark?

More:
 * This may sound silly, but you don't actually mention that the venom is used for hunting. Or is it not?
 * AFAIK all venomous snakes use venom for hunting and thought it was obvious... will see what I can source. ok added this Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:35, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "the inland taipan of central" Specific name? You generally provide one, but not always.
 * yes/done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:35, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "brown snakes accounted for 41% of identified snakebite victims" Were responsible for (or similar) I think - this reads like they were the ones bitten!
 * ok/done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:35, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Snakes of Medical Importance or snakes of medical importance?
 * source actually lowercases it so aligned Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:35, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "a third of cases develop serious systemic envenoming including hypotension and collapse, thrombotic microangiopathy, severe haemorrhage, and cardiac arrest" Wikilinks, perhaps? And next few sentences/paragraphs. I appreciate that this section has to be fairly technical, but wikilinks can help.
 * linked a bunch Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:45, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "Mirtschin and colleagues found that Queensland eastern brown snakes produced over triple the average amount of venom (11 mg vs 3 mg) than those from South Australia.[61] Worrell reported" Full names, perhaps?
 * added - Worrell mentioned previously in article Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:45, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Some pictures in the venom section might be good. A picture of a bite would work, or chemical structures, or something?
 * Heh, not volunteering! Will have a think...already asked on flickr for immature photos too... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:45, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Hope that's useful. Josh Milburn (talk) 16:04, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Support on prose. This reads very well, and is no doubt a valuable resource for anyone wanting to learn about the snake. I'd really like to hear more about cultural significance, and perhaps about human/snake interactions... I'm guessing that people kill them, for example? Josh Milburn (talk) 10:58, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'd like some more cultural significance - and if I can find I will add. Regarding their status, most Australians are not too good at distinguishing species and there are loads of dangerous ones. These are not hated any more or less than other species really. And thx for support :) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:22, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Comments by AhmadLX

 * "German-British zoologist Albert Günther described Demansia annulata in 1858." Maybe described it/eastern brwon snake as Demansia annulata ?
 * done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:08, 5 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Günther or Gunther? I see both.
 * now umlauted Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "Italian naturalist Giorgio Jan named Pseudoelaps sordellii and Pseudoelaps kubingii in 1859." is unclear. Are these different species, different looking specimens of eastern brown snake?
 * different specimens as different taxa that turned out to be this species. Thing is, it can be quite variable in appearance (particularly young and mature snakes) and covers a wide range. Will see if I can make this clearer Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Alright, then it should be mentioned. Currently it seems as if they are different species. In my opinion, one general statement describing the situation should be added at the beginning of the paragraph. Something like "Due to differences in appearance, different specimens of Eastern Brown Snake were categorized as different species in the early nineteenth century."
 * now added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:37, 5 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Correct me if wrong, I am no expert in biology, but "described as ABC" gives impression that some species ABC already existed and specimens of EBS were wrongly associated with it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:08, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No that is a fair point. I have rewritten the first segment to address that. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:09, 5 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Maybe I'm a bit dumb, so can't understand what does this mean: "Snake clutches in colder areas often have more banded than unbanded young snakes."
 * more of the offspring have a banded coloration Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:30, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Contrast doesn't seem to be clear: more banded vs. unbanded. I can't access the source, based on your description I think a formulation like "In colder areas, newly hatched snakes are more heavily banded than young snakes" would be easier to understand.
 * it means more baby snakes with bands not baby snakes with more bands (some babies do lack bands) - tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:41, 5 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Any reason for one-line para in Distribution and habitat?
 * no - fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:30, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Why not °C?
 * fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Any info on longevity in the wild?
 * none that I could find Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:30, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This source explicitly says "it is not known", so for comprehensiveness, it should be mentioned here too.


 * "...carpet python (Morelia spilota), have also been eaten." perhaps juveniles?
 * I'd love to but the source does not specify Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:30, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "The bearded dragon is possibly resistant to the effects of the venom." Does this mean they are not on the menu? or?  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 12:45, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * not really - they still get attacked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:30, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

I am supporting.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 15:35, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:22, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

SC

 * Lead
 * "The adult eastern brown snake is a slender snake up to 2 m (7 ft) long with": snake – snake
 * rejigged Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:00, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Tax
 * We have both "Gunther" and "Günther"
 * now umlauted Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "for lack of rigour": I would probably phrase as "for a lack of rigour", but if that doesn't look right in AusEng, please ignore
 * no, Aussies are no different, "a" added.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "number of diploid chromosomes at 38, those of the other species": looks a little like a comma splice – a semi colon may work better
 * semicoloned Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:42, 5 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Link for monotypic?
 * now linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:59, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "The species commonly called" -> "The species is commonly called"
 * verb added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:59, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Reproduction
 * At the end of Behaviour you say "cool days in September and October risked running into courting male snakes", and the next sentence—in Reproduction—you say "snakes mate from October onwards". It may be worth smoothing the discrepancy out a bit
 * looking at source again, "early" added before October, and "generally" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:32, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Venom
 * "pre- and post synaptic" -> "pre- and post-synaptic" (with the hyphen)?
 * see below Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:59, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * "presynaptic" and "posstynaptic": 1. "posstynaptic" is a spelling mistake; 2. are this meant to be hyphenated or as one word
 * now one-worded Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:59, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Refs
 * You have dates in the "30 October 2015" format and "January 11, 2014" format (the latter at FN 52)
 * now linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:59, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * You have the rage ranges in the "pp. 224–26" format, while the MoS now says it should be "pp. 224–226". It's pointless nonsense and I'll leave it to you to decide whether you need to bother or not.
 * ???? - I must go read...I read somewhere the two digits were ok.....damn... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:59, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

That's it: all very minor fare and I look forward to supporting shortly. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 18:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Support - subject to my cop-out for being a subject ignoramus. Nicely written, covers everything I would expect it to and meets the FA criteria as far as prose is concerned. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:21, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * reviews from neophytes are necessarily to analyse accessibility...and thx ++ Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:06, 7 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Image review - as this already has three reviews, I'll give an image review, but maybe continue with a full review if this stalls. Sources and licences look good, but I have some comments on image use. FunkMonk (talk) 06:13, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You write the juveniles can be reticulated. Why not show it? We have this photo:
 * I am stunned at how I missed that after looking for images of young sneks Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:06, 7 May 2019 (UTC)


 * You show a snake wrestling with a lizard, but why not use this photo from the same series, which is closer to them? I see the snake's head is shown better in the image you use, but maybe crop it then, which would also get rid of the watermark.
 * have changed images - will get to an image editor soon.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:33, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I've removed the watermark. FunkMonk (talk) 11:37, 12 May 2019 (UTC)


 * This sign, if really free, could be nice under Venom:
 * The author Frederick McCoy circulated it in 1877 as an educational poster, so yes it is free and added Cas Liber (talk · contribs)


 * Why is the taxobox image's caption downsized? Not exactly easy on the eye.
 * Not me, undone Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:33, 7 May 2019 (UTC)


 * If you want to collapse the long synonym list to save space, you can do as in for example red rail.
 * yes/great idea/done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:33, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Sources review

 * No spotchecks carried out
 * All links to sources are working
 * Formats
 * Page ranges: In his general review, SchroCat indicated the MoS requirement that page ranges should be given in full, e.g. as 149–150 not 149–50. It's a very minor issue but nonetheless, probably worth complying.
 * done. I've done two digits for years but failed to find the supporting guidline. Not a big deal. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:12, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ref 3: publisher details missing
 * added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:12, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ref 22: publisher details missing
 * added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:46, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ref 30: "South Australian Museum" should not be italicised
 * for some reason, using the "work" or "website" field in "cite web" format does this. Not sure what to do about it. Open to suggestions Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:12, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ref 31: "Australian Reptile Online Database" should not be italicised
 * see above Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:12, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Cited texts: The ISBN format of Greer is inconsistent.
 * fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:12, 18 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Quality and reliability: Ref 21 is a self-published source. What makes this qualify as a high quality reliable source?
 * Professor Jaky Troy is an expert in the field Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:12, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Subject to the above, the sources look to be of the appropriate standards of quality and reliability per the FA criteria. Brianboulton (talk) 11:45, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 10:57, 1 June 2019 (UTC)