Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Elizabeth Raffald/archive1

Elizabeth Raffald

 * Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 21:50, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

It took a Yorkshire lass to show the Mancunians how to cook—and to invent the pride of the north west, the Eccles cake. Elizabeth Raffald was an extraordinary character. After working in service, she opened a Register Office to introduce domestic workers to employers; ran a cookery school and sold food, published a superb cookery book and Manchester's first trade directory, ran two important post houses while also giving birth to six children. This article has undergone a re-write and had an excellent peer review. Any further constructive comments and suggestions are warmly welcomed. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:50, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Support. I was one of the peer reviewers and my quibbles (all minor) were dealt with then. Only two further points strike me on rereading. In the lead, "In 1769 Raffald published..." might flow more smoothly as "In 1769 she published ..."; and in Business career, penultimate para, I think you have one ess too many in the Raffalds's: you only want the first one. The article seems to me to meet the FA criteria: comprehensive, an enjoyable read, balanced, well and widely sourced and nicely illustrated. –  Tim riley  talk   12:49, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Afterthought: speaking as a Liverpudlian I take issue with your absurd claim above about Eccles cakes. Frightful things! Give me a plate of scouse any day.  Tim riley  talk   12:54, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Tim, for your PR and additional thoughts here. I've tweaked per your two suggestions here. - SchroCat (talk) 08:57, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Support. One minor query: in the lead, we are told that "After her death there were several official editions of her cookery book, and twenty-three pirated ones": is there any particular reason the lead doesn't say how many genuine editions of the book were published? Other than that, the prose is good, illustrations are good (if I were to be really picky, I might complain about the off-of-horizontal lines of mortar and text on the photo of the blue plaque!), and the article seems balanced and comprehensive. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:20, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No reason at all, and I've now added the number. (I've also asked at the graphics lab is anyone can do something clever with the plaque image to straighten it out a little. We shall see what they can come up with!) Many thanks for your comments here, and for your tweak to the year template - I'm very much obliged to you! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:57, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Image review


 * Suggest adding alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:55, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Nikkimaria. Now duly added. - SchroCat (talk) 16:48, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Support. I missed the peer review, but looking at this version today, it's evident I wasn't needed. I've read through the article today, fixed some ref orders and removed a typo, and I'm happy this meets the FA criteria. A sterling effort and a very good read. Well done.  Cassianto Talk  17:35, 14 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks Cass - I'm much obliged to you. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:08, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Support by Gog the Mild

 * There is quite a bit of over linking; eg "flummery" is linked three times.
 * It would seem reasonable to me to link "wedding cake" in the lead. And in the main article.
 * "The Directory contains" and other cases. Should "Directory" not be in italics?
 * "Hunt identifies that there are no keepers of lodging houses listed" Optional: "identifies" → 'points out'.
 * "Fifteen genuine editions of her book were published" "genuine" seems odd; do you mean 'authorised'?
 * "which includes a recipe for apricot ice cream.[91] In her 1984 book, An Omelette and a Glass of Wine, David includes recipes for potted ham with chicken, potted salmon, and lemon syllabub" I assume that these recipes are copied from Raffald's book; it may be worth tweaking the language to make this clear.
 * "she included three of Raffald's recipes" I count more than three. Could you separate them out with semi colons?
 * "A blue plaque marked the site of" Should that not be 'marks'?
 * Marked is right: It was damaged in the bomb attack and a new one placed nearby. - SchroCat (talk) 09:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC)


 * "at the hall's restaurant, catering for public visitors" IMO this would read better if "catering" → 'which caters'.
 * "Steve Hamilton, Arley's general manager" "Arley's" → 'Arley Hall's'?

An excellently written article. Enjoyable and educational to boot. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:53, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , thank you very much indeed for these. All done, with the exception of the one I've commented on. I'm mich obliged to you. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Sources review
Brianboulton (talk) 14:28, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No spotchecks carried out
 * All links to sources are working, per the external links checker tool
 * Formats: Ref 72 requires pp. not p.
 * Quality and reliability: The article appears to very extensively sourced, and I see no evident issues relating to quality and reliability.
 * , Many thanks for your eagle eye on this. I've tweaked the ref in question. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Comments and support from Gerda
Thank you for dealing with a woman influential in cooking! Only minor comments:

General: while I believe that a woman should not be called by given name alone, I don't think she should be called Raffald before she married. That goes for lead and the first paragraph of early life.
 * Both courses are followed, and I am not sure there is any firm guidance that either one is inappropriate. - SchroCat (talk) 16:26, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * This is a recurring theme on Wikipedia. There are some who believe that calling a woman by her first name belittles her, whereas I believe that it clarifies just who it is you're talking about. "Raffald" could be taken to mean either Elizabeth or her husband, and as you say Gerda, she didn't adopt the surname Raffald until her marriage anyway. And I have to say I find the switching between "Elizabeth" and "Raffald" to be somewhat grating. But so long as the WMF is so morbidly obsessed with non-existent gender issues there seems little to be done about it. Eric   Corbett  17:14, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I tried (on a couple of other articles) using the first name throughout for consistency and clarity. Given the reaction, one would have thought the end of the world was nigh. Mind you, the two main drivers to change the name were among the most unhelpful individuals I've ever come across - one of whom was a rather unbalanced stalker too. - SchroCat (talk) 21:58, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Lead: The first sentence is overly general, - I'd prefer a hint at her topics.
 * The problem is that she followed a diverse path. Books on cookery, a directory and on childbirth; businesses selling food, a pub, a servants register, etc. We start bloating a bit too much and lose the impact. - SchroCat (talk) 16:26, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Early life
 * I see no advantage of the image left, where it displaces the text below the header.
 * I'm ambivalent, but done. - SchroCat (talk) 16:26, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Business career Cookery
 * "John opened a floristry shop near Fennel Street; Raffald began an entrepreneurial career at the premises.", - you could say - in this case - "Elizabeth" (to distinguish), or "his wife". Or begin with what she did and then say "her husband". Same a few sentences later.
 * "Raffald did not "gloss ... over with hard names or words of high style, but wrote in my own plain language"." - I don't know a good way to avoid the switch from third person to first person in the quote, but perhaps you can find one.
 * Tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 16:26, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I had to look up Mancunian, but may be the only one. Manchester dialect?
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:26, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I suggest to have the Directory image a bit larger.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:26, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * "Colquhoun thinks some of the recipes 'just a bit bizarre'", - strange grammar in the combination, but ma be just for me.

Legacy
 * I don't think we need a translation of "burnt cream" a second time.

Please take the points just as things to be considered, - I am ready to support regardless, and some may be just my missing English or Mancunian ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:29, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you - SchroCat (talk) 16:26, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Support by Eric Corbett
An improvement on my poor effort. Eric  Corbett  17:18, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank Eric - and also for your comments and assistance at PR - I'm much obliged, and I hope Raffald's name spreads further! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 22:05, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 08:55, 26 June 2019 (UTC)