Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Elwood Haynes/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 20:49, 22 May 2009.

Elwood Haynes

 * Nominator(s): Charles Edward (Talk) 15:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

A week and half has been spent researching the topic and the article has been put through a successful GA review. I believe it is now comprehensive and ready to be a featured article. Charles Edward (Talk) 15:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Question When I put "Elwood Haynes" into my library database, I also get this biography: Elwood Haynes : 1857-1925 : inventor, scientist, metallurgist, industrialist, educator, philanthropist by Wallace Huffman. Any reason why it wasn't used, considering the small number of sources available on Haynes? Awadewit (talk) 18:57, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I went to my library to find that book specifically, but they did not have it. But that is where I found Alloys and Automobiles, by Gray. Which I found to be very comprehensive. When used along with the book on the Haynes-Apperson company and what was available from the Indiana Historical Society, I feel that I was able to get a complete picture of Haynes. Charles Edward (Talk) 20:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * How can you be sure that the article is comprehensive if you haven't seen the book, though? I would offer to help, since I have access to the book, but I can't until next week - this is finals week. Awadewit (talk) 02:49, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's apparently just 20 pages long and published by a local historical society 45 years ago. It's worth tracking down but having seen a few biographies like this I wouldn't get my hopes up. --Chiliad22 (talk) 03:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I am familiar with several books by Ralph Gray, from which about 60% of the article is sourced, and I have found his books to always be very comprehensive. It is the only biography aside from the one you mentioned that I found while searching for sources, and after reading it I believe it is truly exhausting on the topic. The primary notability of Haynes is his inventions and companies, and secondarily his brief political career and part in the Indiana Gas Boom. A third tier would perhaps be his philanthropy and awards, and a couple lawsuits he was involved in. For the most important parts of his life (autos and inventions) I was able to get quite a few sources, and used the best few for the article. Between them all, I think all the important and secondary aspects of the life are covered well, and to a fair degree the third tier of things. Charles Edward (Talk) 12:38, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm satisfied. Thanks. Awadewit (talk) 03:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments - sources look okay, links not checked with the link checker tool, as it was misbehaving. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)


 * A few things:
 * "he formed the first profitable company in the United States to commercially produce automobiles." - this seems redundant, profitable and commercially. If you're producing a profit aren't you automatically doing engaging in commercial activities? I'd suggest "he formed the first company in the United States to profitably produce automobiles."
 * Adjusted as you suggested. I was trying to contrast, he was the second company to produce cars commercially, but the first company was not profitable and went out of business. But saying first profitable company carries the same meaning. Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "His frequent travels drew his interest to the idea of creating a mechanical means of transportation" this is kind of awkward... numerous mechanical means of transportation already existed (steam ship and train, most obviously). Can you be more specific about his inspiration?
 * Changed to "to the idea of a mechanical vehicle that could travel without need of a horse,". Somewhat better I think.
 * "Haynes Stellite Company was formed" passive voice can be fixed here
 * Fixed Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "built a melting furnace" - are you sure the source doesn't say smelting furnace?
 * Spelling error, you are correct. Fixed Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "add some fun to his time" - this just seems like an awkward phrase. Can you find a more common expression?
 * Changed to "find other activities to take part in". Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "His graduation thesis was entitled " - more passive voice, might need to rewrite the sentence
 * Fixed.. I think Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "one paper referred to him" - which paper?
 * Added Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "main gas pipeline was laid between Portland" - more passive voice, might need to rewrite the sentence
 * Fixed. Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "that would be the first long distance" - I think this should be "which would"?
 * Fixed. Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Haynes was put in charge of the proposed pipeline", "entire set of regulations was repealed" - more passive voice
 * Fixed Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Why did he stay at Indiana Gas if he didn't want to be associated with a corrupt company?
 * The source indicates he didn't want to move to Chicago where he perceived the corruption was at and where he could potentially become entangled in it, not that he wanted to leave the company altogether, so he instead sought a position more removed from Chicago. I have clarified that. Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "he began laying out 'plans..'" when?
 * 1891, added. Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Haynes' car is believed to be the second gasoline-engine powered vehicle to be successfully road tested in the United States" - believed by who?
 * All but one of my sources says the second, but one says first and discounts the Duryea car. The Smithsonian lists it as second, I will go with that. Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Article has some excess details... some lines I noticed that don't really seem to contribute anything to the story:
 * "He attempted to experiment with steel, but was unable to heat the furnace enough to work it" - no impact, doesn't seem important
 * Removed Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "his ancestors immigrated to New England in 1689" debatable but I'm not really sure how critical this genealogy is
 * I think it is worth leaving his ancestry. It always helps to know where a person is "from" when building a background sketch of them. Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "and once played on the school's unofficial football team in an attempt to make his time there more enjoyable." not really important?
 * Removed it, it was intended to be part of the response to his mother's advice to do something more fun at school. Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "The school was five miles (8 km.) from his home and he found the walk to be time consuming." a detail that doesn't really seem necessary
 * One of the sources uses to this to indicate early experience with inefficient means of transportation, but I think that is kind of grasping myself. I have removed it. Charles Edward (Talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Some of these are just suggestions (especially the excess details that could be omitted). --Chiliad22 (talk) 00:38, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Support all my nitpicks have been addressed. This article did have issues with too much trivial detail and excessive use of the passive voice, but it's all been addressed. I'm not too concerned with the 1965 biography not being cited... see my above comment. --Chiliad22 (talk) 13:53, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Support  I have been copy editing this article through GA and here. It gives a clearly written and comprehensive picture of an interesting chapter in automotive history. Just some comments:
 * "Without a spare tire, Haynes was unable to run in the contest. The race was held on April 7, and thousands of spectators turned out. Duryea's car won first place and a German Benz came in second. Another contest was held in which Haynes won a prize for most intuitive design." I am confused about the contest and the race. If Haynes was unable to run in the contest, but he won first place in the race? I guess the contest and the race are different?

&mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 20:54, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes that is correct, there were apparently different events, the auto race was one event, and a design contest was another. I suspect there were others too, but my source didn't mention them. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 02:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Would "preliminary contest" be inaccurate? I actually spent quite a bit of time trying to figure this out when I was reading it. &mdash; Mattisse  (Talk) 16:47, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The source indicates the design competition occurred after the race itself, although it does not come out and say so. I would like to write an article on the race if I could find another source.. I think I will try to do that this afternoon. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 16:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose on images as follow:
 * File:Elwood P. Haynes.jpg: could be private. If it cannot be shown as published before 1923, this can be converted to fair-use as long as no other pre-1923 published portraits can be found.
 * Found it in one of Scribner's Magazine.
 * File:Worcester County Free Institute of Industrial Science, c 1884.jpg: needs proof of pre-1923 publication; unlikely to be of enough significance (relevance) for fair use in this article
 * Removed &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Natural gass well.JPG: needs proof of pre-1923 publication; unlikely to be of enough significance (relevance) for fair use in this article
 * Removed &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Bertha Lanternman Haynes.jpg: definite private photo, either prove its pre-1923 publication or remove it from this article
 * I think this could be kept as fair use. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Per WP:NFCC, 10 criteria have to be fulfilled for fair use. I am not certain this photo has great significance for this article.  Jappalang (talk) 23:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Bertha and March Haynes, children of Elwood Haynes, 1902.jpg: definite private photo, either prove its pre-1923 publication or remove it from this article
 * I think this could be kept as fair use &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Per above. Jappalang (talk) 23:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Riverside Machine Works, Kokomo Indiana.jpg: needs proof of pre-1923 publication; unlikely to be of enough significance (relevance) for fair use in this article
 * Removed - although I can't quite remember, i think I took this photo of a newspaper article at cropped the image. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Elwood Haynes driving his first automobile, the Pioneer in 1886.jpg: likely publicity shot, but please provide pre-1923 publication evidence. If not, removal would be advised.
 * I think this could be kept as fair use. The photo is on display at the Smithsonian, is in several places including find-a-grave where it is marked as not-copyrighted, and it is the cover image of both Alloys and Automobiles and Haynes-Apperson. It must surely be public domain? I can't find anything about its origin though other than it is taken in 1894 in Kokomo. However, I have went ahead and replaced it with the image you suggested above - I had already uploaded it on the commons. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It could be, but the projects operate on the principle of verifiability. I have seen copyrighted images uploaded to the projects that left unchecked have propagated throughout the Internet, so that does not become a good indicator of public domain.  Jappalang (talk) 23:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Haynes-Apperson factory c 1899.jpg: likely publicity shot, but please provide pre-1923 publication evidence. If not, removal would be advised.
 * The image is a cropped photo of a 1910 Haynes company advertisement. You can still see a portion of the text of the advertisement towards the bottom of the photo. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you upload the uncropped image over this one, then re-upload the cropped image over it? In this way, the uncropped image (showing it as an advertisement) is in the "File history" and allows easy verification.  Jappalang (talk) 23:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I sure can. Will be up there shortly. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 23:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Elwood Haynes driving a Haynes-Apperson car in the Long Island non-stop contest in April 1902.jpg: likely publicity shot, but please provide pre-1923 publication evidence. If not, removal would be advised.
 * Removed &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 14:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Workers casting Stelllite at the Haynes Stellite Company, 10 October 1918.jpg: needs proof of pre-1923 publication; unlikely to be of enough significance (relevance) for fair use in this article
 * Removed - i want to readded it though, So I am going to try and find its original source. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Elwood Haynes in Denver Coloroda while on an Automobile trip in 1913.jpg: needs proof of pre-1923 publication; unlikely to be of enough significance (relevance) for fair use in this article
 * This is a photo from a newspaper article - I have added that to the photos source information. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Any chance you have information about the specific article (title, author, etc)? Jappalang (talk) 23:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My photo is only of the top portion of the article, and it was a two column cut out.
 * File:Elwood Haynes 030.jpg: needs proof of pre-1923 publication; unlikely to be of enough significance (relevance) for fair use in this article
 * Removed, but I think this was from a newspaper article too. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Young Elwood Haynes c 1885.png: why is it stated to be c 1885 when the Charles C Gordon Library says 1881? Who says it was published in a yearbook?
 * I mislabeled it when I uploaded. I was not aware it was his graduation picture at first, and discovered the exact year later and source later. It was rather poor quality from trying to blow it up which is why I didn't use it earlier. I know it was in a yearbook because the yearbook was at the museum. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 23:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Elwood Haynes Pioneer Postage Stamp.jpg: this is a copyviolation, per commons:Commons:Stamps/Public domain, USPS stamps issued after 1977 are copyrighted.
 * Really? Removed.

US public domain determination is primarily based on publication, not creation date. To re-iterate, creation is not publication. Publication involves the distribution (or display) to the public of copies. Elwood Haynes museum was set up May 28, 1967. Even if we take it that the publishing date is on that date (assuming that they created brochures throughout the year, showing all the photos in each brochure); that could mean 95 years of copyright protection. There are about 564 books, published in 1890-1922, on Elwood Haynes. Photos in them (including any of the above that appears in them) can be used without issues. Jappalang (talk) 22:59, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How about Haynes' portrait and car shot here. Both have been published in 1922's Illustrated World (pp. 388 and 390).  The car photo can be found at NYPL's digital gallery.  Jappalang (talk) 01:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I will check these out to see what I can find, several of these images are in a 1919 book called Indiana and Indianans, which would make them PD. When I uploaded them I put the source where I got them though, which was from photos at the Haynes museum, they are higher quality than screen shoots of the book which can be accessed online. I would think the picture of his wife and children, as well as the photos of himself would be fair use though. I will check out sources tommorrow and figure out which one cans be salvaged for use. Thanks! &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 02:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * A couple questions also. The Haynes Muesem is owned by the state of Indiana, which would be the owner of all the items in it, presumably. The state does hold copyrights to works, but it waives all restrictions on government owned works and allows them to be reproduced. Also, at least two of the images are on display in the Smithsonian Institution exhibit, which is US government owned, would those count as PD? &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 02:33, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can note for those images that appear in the 1919 publication, that would be great (take a look at File:Elwood P. Haynes.jpg on how it can be stated, although a simple "appeared on p. x of this " would also do fine). Indiana government works are in the public domain?  Regardless, it would be similar to federal law, in which even though federal works are in public domain, copyrights of private works may be transfered to the government on donation, hence retaining the rights of protection for the stipulated period.  It would be safer (and easier) to determine their copyright status through pre-1923 publication.  Jappalang (talk) 03:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the Indiana Code, 5-14-3, states that all Indiana owned works and public records can be copied without limitations, although the state holds copyright, it waives all restrictions on using its works. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 12:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I have removed several of the images you listed. I have left three of them that I think could be fair use, please let me know what you think. I have also provided original sources for the others to show they are public domain, as I could recall. I believe some of the ones I have removed are also PD, but I can't recall for if they were from a newspaper article or what... If I get a chance I will return to the museum to and write down original sources and put them back into the article. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 13:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I guess just my comment they are from certain places are not enough to establish where they are from. Not any different than any other claim made... Hmm. I will remove all the questionable ones for now. When I get a chance I will try to get page numbser, exact source information, etc and readd them to the article. I think there will still be enough images to pass this review. I have moved in a few definantly PD images from some other article to use for now. I feel they are less useful though. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 23:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose struck. Images as of this revision are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed.  Jappalang (talk) 02:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

One of the most interesting articles I've read! As you've written it, Haynes was a fascinating man and integral to automobile history. I had no idea that one of the first American cars was from Indiana. These seem to be my only concerns, all of which are probably me just being picky:
 * "While giving his car a ride around the town on the following day Haynes was involved in what is believed to be the first automobile accident after swerving to miss a street car and striking a sharp curb, busting a tire and damaging the axle. Without a spare tire, Haynes was unable to run in the race. The race was held on November 28, and thousands of spectators turned out. Duryea's car won first place and a German Benz came in second." It may be in the ref at the end of the next sentence, but this is interesting and unique and needs a source.
 * It is the ref at the end, I have duplicated it. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 02:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "the first time an automobile traveled over 1,000 miles" Again, it may be after the next sentence, but any first needs a ref.
 * Same thing &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 02:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "A parade of 2,000 cars was organized in New York City during 1908 and Haynes, who many recognized as the inventor of the American automobile, led the parade down Broadway riding in the Pioneer. He was followed by ten Haynes' cars, a model from each year to display the advancement in technology." Same.
 * Same things too &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 02:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Smithsonian - Which museum, National Museum of American History? Reywas92 Talk  22:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It was formerly in the Autmobile Hall, but is now in the History muesem according to that website, I have added that to the article. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 02:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

It is interesting! Aparently, Indiana rivaled Michigan for the first years of the industry. Studabaker, Haynes, Apperson, and others all were in Indiana. The Indy 500 was spawned by all that. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 02:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Should the 500 perhaps be mentioned in the legacy, then? Either way, I Support. Reywas92 Talk  23:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think Haynes personally had anything to do with the 500, but it developed because of all the car companies in Indiana at the turn of the century. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 01:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Karanacs. I found this to be an interesting article on a topic I knew nothing about. It is very, very close to FA status, but I think there are a few little niggles that need to be taken care of first. Karanacs (talk) 18:16, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think there is likely still a little too much detail in the article, especially in the section on his education. (For example, I would strike the sentence about his parents escorting him home after sight-seeing and the piece about his spending a week at Bertha's but being sick the whole time.)  There's other trivia throughout the article, such as information on various parades - I don't see why all of these are that relevant to this article. Also, the grand jury information...there are other examples too, where I think sentences could be removed from the article without hindering the reader's ability to understand Haynes and his life and beliefs.
 * I think some of the sentences are overly wordy and could be copyedited to be a bit tighter. Random example:  the two decided on the need for a roof to be installed on future models could read more clearly the two decided to install a roof on future models.
 * I saw some grammatical errors and misspellings throughout the article. I tried to fix most of these, but I recommend one more good read to see if there are more.
 * Are the labor problems after his comment on wages significant? They are mentioned but not fleshed out.


 * I will work on these right away. The laborors had unionized and threatened a strike unless their wages were raised to a rate Haynes thought was too high - Haynes was not much of a buisness leader (he was much more involved in development parts of his buisnesses), and already had alot on his plate with the auto company, so rather than fight them he sold the company. Union Carbine absorbed their union into their own, and that resolved the problems without and strike. I will try to work a brief explanation like that into the article. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 18:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have tried to pare the article back a bit by removing some of the less releveant parts. I did leave the one New York Parade, since he got arrested there it seems to me to be worth inclusion. I have also tried to tighten and break up some of the longer sentances. I am not the best copy-editor though, so problems like that are not always apparent to me.. I will continue to read through it again to see if I can find anything else. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 21:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.