Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ernest Roberts (Australian politician)/archive1

Ernest Roberts (Australian politician)

 * Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:53, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Ernest Roberts was an up-and-coming South Australian state and federal politician who died young. Not my first soldier/politician, I brought Bill Denny and Arthur Blackburn up to FA a few years back, but some extra non-military eyes would be really helpful, especially anyone with experience of reviewing politician bios. Roberts served twice in the Second Boer War with colonial and then Commonwealth mounted troops. I haven't done many bios of soldiers from that war, and I think the recent GAN by Hog Farm and A-Class review by a few Milhist types have improved the article markedly. Have at it! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:53, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Drive-by comment on nationality field in infobox
I'm unsure what the convention is for using this field on this infobox, but "English-Australian" seems rather strange to put on here? If it's supposed to represent national status, then "British" or "British subject" would be more appropriate. If nationality means ethnicity in this context, then wouldn't just filling in "English" make more sense? Horserice (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Good point. Not sure when that got there, but have adjusted it to British-Australian. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:33, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Support from Hawkeye7
I reviewed this article (and provided a source review) at A class and assert that it is of Featured Article quality. Hawkeye7  (discuss)  23:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Hawkeye! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:34, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Review by Steelkamp
I'll review this article seeing as I have experience in writing Australian politician articles. Steelkamp (talk) 08:34, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * " as an independent Labor Party candidate". I would replace that with "as an independent Labor candidate". Isn't the whole point of describing oneself as an independent Labor candidate to say that you aren't part of a party but subscribe to the same ideology? That's why I would leave out "party" and not link the party as well.
 * Excellent point. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:45, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * "The Premier of South Australia". This should be "The premier of South Australia" as per MOS:JOBTITLES.
 * Isn't this a case where "When a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description" applies? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:42, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure if it were "Premier of South Australia Charles Kingston" it would be ok, and if it were "The premier of South Australia, Charles Kingston", it would be ok. But due to MOS:SEAOFBLUE issues, the second one is preferable. Steelkamp (talk) 11:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, no worries. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:03, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, forgot to ping you. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:48, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Upper house could be linked.
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:49, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * And on that note, is it possible to mention lower house somewhere?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:49, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * You could link "crossed the floor" to crossing the floor.
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:42, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * It should be mentioned that the Kingston government governed with the support of the ULP, seeing as Kingston wasn't actually part of the party.
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * "The election brought the Price-Peake Government to power, a minority government under the ULP premier, Thomas Price, working in a coalition government with the Liberal independents led by Archibald Peake." That's a lot of mentions of "government" I would remove the third one and just have it as "...working in a coalition with the Liberal independents..."
 * Sure, good idea. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * There's an inconsistency in capitalisation between "Kingston government" and "Price-Peake Government". Perhaps Price-Peake Government needs an RM to move it inline with Australian federal governments.
 * Yep, decapped. And moved. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * "and his explanation met with loud cheers from the crowd." Should that instead be "and his explanation was met with loud cheers from the crowd."
 * Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Boer Commando has an uppercase "C" but this article uses a lowercase "c".
 * I suspect the article is incorrectly capitalised, as Boer Commando is not a proper noun. Although this area is perhaps a gray one, per MOS:MILTERMS. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Can rearguard be linked?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * What's with the inconsistency between "de Wet" and "De Wet"?
 * At the beginning of sentences, De Wet, within sentences, de Wet. Fixed the instance of De Wet within a sentence. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * "When the incumbent member for the federal division of Adelaide and former premier, Charles Kingston, died on 11 May 1908, a by-election was called. Roberts won the 13 June by-election as the Australian Labour (Labor from 1912) Party candidate against the independent Anti-Socialist Party candidate Alexander McLachlan, receiving 51.2 per cent of the votes." Does the source there specify the date that Kingston died? Does the source there mention the Labor name change?
 * No, but I've added sources and citations for both. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * "Roberts retained his seat in the 1910 Australian federal election". This could be shortened to "Roberts retained his seat in the 1910 federal election". Same with "1913 Australian federal election".
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

That's all from me. Sorry for taking so long. Please ping me when you have completed this. Steelkamp (talk) 10:13, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * G'day, thanks so much for your review. See what you think of my responses? I'm quite unsure about the capitalisation of Premier, but happy to decap if I've got it wrong. Let me know? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. Steelkamp (talk) 02:12, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Support Comments by JennyOz
Hi PM, a lot of life in 45 years. I only have a few comments and suggestions...

lede
 * He was re-elected in the state election of 3 November 1906. - why include "the" in wlink here but not in the 1905 immediately preceding?
 * Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:55, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * When a by-election was called on 13 June 1908 - called for 13 June to avoid ambiguity?
 * tweaked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:55, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * He successfully contested his seat - defended?
 * went with retained. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:55, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The loss of Roberts ... was keenly felt by - "keenly" is an unfortunate word in this circumstance? It can also mean enthusiastically. Perhaps swap to intensely felt or similar?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:55, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Early political career
 * trade union-run weekly magazine - swap hyphen to a MOS:SUFFIXDASH ie trade union–run
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Soldier and journalist
 * The convoy was regularly sniped at, but the troops, supported by the guns - what sort of guns? maybe link artillery above?
 * linked artillery, but neither Wilcox or Murray tell us what sort of guns they were. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Hartebeestfontein - is Hartbeesfontein?
 * Most certainly. Must be a typo in Murray. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:39, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Later political career
 * Roberts was a member of royal commissions in 1906 and 1908, inquiring into the affairs of produce merchants and into wheat-marketing practices in the state respectively. - these are state RCs? Would better link be List of South Australian royal commissions? His name appears (unlinked) in 1907 merchants but not the wheat RC. He also appears in the 1897 Bundaleer waterworks RC
 * I'm not sure what you mean. Thornton says he was involved in both the RCs listed in the article. I've looked in Trove and found a reference to the Bundaleer water scheme, and added it. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * a by-election was called. Roberts won the 13 June by-election as - swap the 2 by-election links?
 * I think I understand what you mean, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * He successfully contested his seat at - defended / held?
 * went with "retained". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Minutes after speaking in a fiery - new para or even Death and memorial/legacy or similar new section?
 * Good idea, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * a stone statue of Queen Victoria - a? is there more than one in Adelaide? If only one (Victoria Square, Adelaide) change to the stone statue? (not suggesting to link)
 * This wasn't in Adelaide, it was at Parliament House in Melbourne. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Facepalm! JennyOz (talk) 13:12, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * It consisted of a broken column - still does? ie consists?
 * Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Consistencies etc
 * 4th Imperial Bushmen's Contingent - is linked in infobox but not elsewhere?
 * linked in the lead and body at first mention. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * per cent of the vote v per cent of the votes
 * now consistent. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * "wagons of De Wet's rearguard" v "continued to pursue de Wet into" - mid-sentence caps consistency?
 * Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:19, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Refs
 * Manning, Geoffrey - authorlink Geoff Manning
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:19, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Murray, P.L. - add space between initials
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:19, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Categories
 * add Category:Burials at West Terrace Cemetery
 * add Category:19th-century Australian politicians - (was in SA HoA 1896)
 * Both done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:19, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks PM, very interesting to read this. My relative was also with the 4th Contingent and sailed on the Manhattan. He was KIA in May 1901 and was later honoured by Rowell.

I may have one more comment but have to re-read the sentence tomorrow to check I'm not confused. JennyOz (talk) 12:42, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Jenny, can I just check on the state of your confusion (if any!) now? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:46, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * , you can be assured I am always confused! Every time I edit anywhere, I realise how much I still don't know about this place. JennyOz (talk) 13:12, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * G'day, thanks so much for your review. All done, I think. I can always rely on you to spot the military jargon and fix my typos and errant grammar! You are a gem! Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * PM, Thanks, this is all marvellous, especially your ability to decipher my queries!


 * I've gone back to see what I was confused about. It's in here....
 * "he quickly became well-known for his advocacy of the early closing of factories – to reduce working hours, and improved working conditions for sailors."
 * "early closing of factories" on first reading sounded like closing them down but the bit after the dash clarifies earlier closing times. So that's okay.
 * But, "to reduce working hours, and improved working conditions for sailors" - if "improved working conditions" is a second advocacy, does it need another snd after "hours,"? (Or change first snd to a comma). If it's part of the earlier times advocacy, (ie shorter working days improve working conditions) then the tense for improved should change to improve? Maybe introduce "for" before "improved"?
 * Sorry, I can't explain my confusion any better than that!

It is such a minor thing (and maybe just me) I am happy to add my s'port. Thanks for telling his story. JennyOz (talk) 13:12, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, I have endeavoured to clarify it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:01, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for tweaking that. Magic! JennyOz (talk) 03:58, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Source review - pass

 * Sources are high quality.
 * Formatting is consistent.
 * fn 35. City?
 * fn 38. Link Geoff Manning
 * Both done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:21, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Hawkeye7  (discuss)  19:15, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Spot checks: 3, 33, 37, 44 - okay
 * Thanks Hawkeye! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Image review – pass
That's all. Harrias (he/him) • talk 13:15, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * File:E. A. Roberts (cropped).jpg – appropriately licensed and captioned with alt text, all okay.
 * File:Members of the 4th Imperial Bushmen's Contingent from South Australia.jpg – the link in the source isn't working (https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P03753.002) I think if you change the collection number to "C989168" it should be fine. It is appropriately licensed and captioned with alt text.
 * File:Ernest Roberts 1905.jpg – appropriately licensed and captioned, requires alt text.
 * File:Ernest Alfred Roberts' memorial at West Terrace Cemetery.JPG – appropriately licensed and captioned, requires alt text.
 * File:Inscription on the memorial to Ernest Alfred Roberts MP at West Terrace Cemetery.jpg – appropriately licensed and captioned, requires alt text.
 * G'day, thanks very much for taking a look. Alt text added throughout, and the AWM link fixed. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:53, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Cheers, all good. Harrias  (he/him) • talk 08:57, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

G'day looks GTG now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:24, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * On the watchlist, PM -- feel free to kick off another if you like. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:41, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi PM, I'm about ready to promote this but I have a concern with the last sentence of the lead, specifically in recognition of his brilliant political career and its untimely end. Some would consider untimely end peacockish but TBH I can live with it, my main concern is the brilliant political career being in WP's voice. I can see two ways round it, take out brilliant entirely, or quote/cite the relevant bit of the inscription that you provide more fully in the final section, i.e. "brilliant career" (this would also give you the opportunity to quote "untimely end", rendering moot any suggestions of peacock phrasing). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:45, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
 * G'day, quoted and attributed it to The Advertiser. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:34, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Great, tks PM. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 22:11, 15 April 2023 (UTC)