Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/FC Barcelona/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:55, 17 August 2010.

FC Barcelona

 * Nominator(s): Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 09:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

After a lot of work since the last FAC, I'm nominating this again. Hopefully it should be better now. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 09:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose: image issues from the peer review have not yet been addressed (note that, although I did not strike the stricken issues, I agree that those are indeed resolved). Some images have been added after the peer review comments and have not been evaluated.  Эlcobbola  talk 18:45, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I've included outstanding issues below along with comments. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 19:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments from per this request:
 * File:FCB.svg - If this crest was created in 1912 (per here), I assume it would be a very simple matter to prove it was published before 1.1.1923, thus making it PD in the US. (NFCC#1) This also doesn't have a verifiable source (WP:IUP/NFCC#6/NFCC#10A), or attribute the author (NFCC#10A - Carles Comamala)
 * Isn't indicated in source that it was published abroad prior to 1923? Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 19:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * User:Hammersoft doesn't think it's from 1912. See file for more information. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 08:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I never said it was. "If" is a conditional and dependent upon consideration of whether the current version is a derivative (in the sense of lacking sufficient originality beyond the original).  Эlcobbola  talk 14:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, but who's to judge? Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 10:18, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * File:Player FC Barcelona 1903 year.jpg - If the author is unknown, why is it being claimed s/he's been dead 70 years? Creation date (1903) is not relevant to the copyright term.
 * Author found. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 09:18, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If we don't know when A.A. Artis died, why is it being claimed he's been dead 70 years? (Spain, by the way, is 80 years if death was before 7.12.1987) Эlcobbola  talk 14:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * File:Joan Gamper 1910 year.jpg - In what year did A.A. Artis die?
 * unable to establish death. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 11:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If we don't know when A.A. Artis died, why is it being claimed he's been dead 70 years? Эlcobbola  talk 14:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Wd it have to be licensed as non-free if death cannot be established? Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 10:17, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * File:Culers.jpg - No license (!!!), no date or authorship information at source (direct link to image itself is not acceptable); has already been nominated for deletion (not by me).
 * Can fair use be applied if information is uncertain/unknown? Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 11:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Non-free content can be included iff its omission would be a detriment to a reader's understanding (NFCC#8). In what way would a reader be unable to understand FC Barcelona without this image?  Эlcobbola  talk 14:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, good. No reader would be able to understand what it looked like without the picture. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 10:17, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * File:Barcelonacrest.jpg - Why does this say "fair uses" if it's PD? Where can we confirm it was published?
 * does publish have to be in a book? What about sale of shirts?
 * Publication is term defined as "the distribution of copies or phonorecords of a work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending". If this was copied and transferred to to public (i.e. not just the team/people in the organization), then it would be considered published, yes.  Эlcobbola  talk 14:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment—no dab links, but the external link to http://www.elperiodico.cat/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=46&idioma=CAT&idnoticia_PK=672045&idseccio_PK=1011 is dead. Ucucha 06:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 06:45, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources comments
 * Per MOS, "References" should precede "Sources" in the article's structure
 * Why have you used the term "Bibliographies" as a subheading? These items are not bibliographies. None of them appear to be cited sources, so can you clarify their role?
 * Ref 4: Typo in retrieval date
 * You should stick to the "p." and "pp." format for page refs (see Refs 7, 9, 11, 49)
 * Ref 18: The source is BCNinternet, not BCinternet
 * Ref 28: ESPN should not be italicised - it is not a print source
 * Ref 36: Publisher is "Telegraph Media Group"
 * Ref 37: Give the language
 * Ref 38: Why is http://www.tribalfootball.com/barcelona-most-popular-club-europe-ahead-real-madrid-226850. a reliable source?
 * Ref 39: Language?
 * Ref 41 lacks publisher information
 * Ref 44: The Observer should be italicised. (The Observer is published by Guardian News and Media, not just "Guardian", but this information can be omitted, as The Observer is well known)
 * Ref 56: The link should be to direct to the required Forbes page
 * Ref 66: Publisher is "FIFA" (per ref 65)
 * Ref 86: Give the language.

I am not able to evaluate the foreign sources. Otherwise sources look OK subject to above points. Brianboulton (talk) 16:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review, all should be dealt with. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 20:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Since there were concerns about images and sourcing in previous reviews, this FAC is premature. Queries about reliability:
 * http://www.bcninternet.com/touristinfo.php?contentid=2033
 * removed
 * http://www.bigsoccer.com/clubs/wiki/europe-uefa/spain/primera-division/fc-barcelona/
 * removed
 * http://soccerlens.com/football-transfer-fee-records/84/
 * replaced
 * http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=188005
 * an AFP report. URL replaced.
 * http://www.tribalfootball.com/barcelona-most-popular-club-europe-ahead-real-madrid-226850
 * replaced
 * http://www.thesportreview.com/tsr/2009/05/fc-barcelona-facts/
 * replaced
 * http://www.psoe.es/ambito/historiapsoe/docs/index.do?action=View&id=992
 * replaced
 * http://hemeroteca.lavanguardia.es/preview/1901/04/09/pagina-2/33398307/pdf.html
 * see La Vanguardia
 * http://www.spain-football.org/rcd-espanyol-history.html
 * replaced
 * http://www.the-sports.org/football-soccer-spanish-primera-liga-presentation-medal-winners-s1-c0-b0-g7-t435.html
 * replaced
 * An awful lot cited to their own website. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:45, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the careful review. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 20:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment-In the Support section, I think this sentence could use a spelling or grammar fix: Throughout Europe Barcelona is often many people second favourite choice.   Burningview    ✉  01:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Copyedited :) Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 08:39, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Object Obvious undue weight. Obviously Barca have been at their strongest in recent years but 2009 has the same as 25 years in other places. I see sentences on individual players arguing, which has occurred in any football team all the time, and even transfer fees and changes to lesser players are discussed in detail.  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  09:27, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * is it better now? trimmed down a bit. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 10:33, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I concur with YellowMonkey. The current regime is hardly more noteworthy than that of Cruyff in the late 1980s/early 1990s for instance. I recommend halving the current content devoted to 2000-2010; move it to a subarticle and summarize.  Skomorokh   17:59, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I still see many run of the mill incidents, normal for football, being emphasised in the 2000s when similar events occur all the time: player getting pelted, player getting standing ovation, player complaining about the coach, a red card, a match-winning goal in the last minute. The last two occurrences are not uncommon, unlike perhaps what Man U did in the CL final in 1999 or Franch in Euro2000 getting two comeback goals in the last minute. The dates or stadia of the specific matches are also not important, I'm not sure if the boardroom upheaval is big for the standards of economically weighty clubs. Nor is describing wonder goals... you just have to score and win the big matches, you don't get a double goal if it's beautiful  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  02:21, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The word count for the "Laporta era" is now 570 compared with 630 for the Nunez era. Is that more like it? Sandman888 (talk) Latest FAC 07:54, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Better. Llooking further, why is the 2006 CL winners formation given instead of the 2009 one when the 2009 team were regarded as superior. And Zapatero is PM not Pres of Spain....  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  02:45, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Replaced with images per the recently promoted Man Utd article. PM fixed. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FAC 07:51, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Oppose – A subject such as a major soccer team is very difficult to bring to FA, and the nominator has done a lot of good work on related lists at FLC. The effort given to this topic is worthy of much praise. That said, articles can't be judged solely on effort, and I don't think this meets the standards at the time, particularly 1a. A sampling of issues I found is below: This is only from the history section; I didn't finish it, much less get to subsequent sections. The entire article needs copy-editing, I'm afraid. This isn't even considering the balance issues that were raised earlier.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 01:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * History: No need for two Gamper links so close together. There's some more overlinking in this section; please check for this throughout.
 * "and more with being a part of the clubs collective identity." "clubs" → "club's".
 * "club president Josep Sunyol and representative of a pro-independence political party". Who is the representative? Sunyol? If so, the order of this part needs to be improved so that is clearer.
 * Why are the stadium names italicized?
 * "On the upside, the 60s saw...". Pretty sure the Manual of Style discourages shortening decades like this. I see that fixing it would create a prose redundancy; how about "the decade" or similar instead?
 * Watch for terms like "Barca legend", as many here may feel that is too POV for their tastes.
 * "he helped the club win the 1973–74 season for the first time since 1960". They couldn't have won a season 14 years beforehand, could they? Try "win the (title, championship, or whatever term works best) for the first time since 1960" with link piping.
 * Nunez main objective was to develop Barca into a world-class club by giving to it stability both on and off the pitch." First part needs to be "Nunez's".
 * "letting players as Maradona, Romario and Ronaldo go rather than meeting their demands." Missing "such" before "as".
 * "the club won its first Cup Winners Cup...". Here, Winners is missing the apostrophe that is in the lead, not to mention our article on the subject.
 * Done, thanks for review! Sandman888 (talk) Latest FAC 13:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.