Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Faryl Smith/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 15:05, 28 October 2011.

Faryl Smith

 * Nominator(s): J Milburn (talk) 18:52, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

This is the third article I have brought here on a child singer of Britain's Got Talent fame, after Andrew Johnston and Connie Talbot. Smith has arguably been more successful than either of them- Talbot saw fame in the US and the far east, and Johnston has vanished, but Smith is still a fairly big name in the UK classical scene, despite her second album failing somewhat. Like my other articles, this one faced an AfD early in its career- a fairly exclusive club among FAs. I have been working on it steadily for over three years, and I am very happy with result; it will hopefully be the lead article in a good topic when I can get a GA review for the article on her second album. I look forward to your comments. J Milburn (talk) 18:52, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. What makes http://acharts.us a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking a look. acharts.us is specifically mentioned on the guideline as an acceptable source for UK chart listings. J Milburn (talk) 19:48, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, the source has now been updated with an official one. J Milburn (talk) 15:40, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Link Check - no DAB-links, however 4-5 no dead links, please check external links tool in toolbox (fixed)
 * Fixed some, working on the others. J Milburn (talk) 21:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * All should now be fixed- I got archive urls for a couple of them. J Milburn (talk) 22:44, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Comments I hope, those mostly technical points are helpful for your FA, good luck. GermanJoe (talk) 20:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * link-worthy terms in captions (f.e. "Britain's Got Talent") can be linked aswell.
 * We don't have an article on the tour specifically. J Milburn (talk) 20:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * common terms need unlink: "British people", "teen".
 * Done. J Milburn (talk) 20:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:OVERLINKs in main text: "The Times", "Daily Mail", "Paul Potts", "UK Albums Chart", "Classical BRIT Awards", "Daily Express", "God Save The Queen", "Ave Maria (Bach/Gounod)", "Andrew Johnston (singer)", "Britain's Got Talent".
 * Made some fixes. J Milburn (talk) 20:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * links in lead or infobox, which are not linked in main text: "Singer", "Classical music", "Crossover (music)", "mezzo-soprano", "ITV", "Sony BMG", "Classical Brits", "Alice in Wonderland" ==> Lead information as summary should reappear somewhere in the main text (and usually be relinked there) . GermanJoe (talk) 20:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Made some fixes. Thanks for your checks. J Milburn (talk) 20:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Could her personal life section be put first? A short introduction of her as person would read better as start, this information is almost lost after the huge career description.
 * 'History' sounds a bit awkward for a biography, maybe just 'Career' ?
 * The personal life typically goes at the end- I could do a few lines of "early life", but then I certainly wouldn't be able to change "history" to "career". J Milburn (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "Early life" is hardly relevant for a sixteen-year-old. It's all early thus far. Brianboulton (talk) 12:42, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment: I meant to review this at PR, but the gridlock there stopped me reaching it and the nominator, understandably, withdrew it after it had lain unattended for two weeks. It's in pretty good shape, though I have identified a few issues that need some attention:-


 * Second paragraph in the "History" section: First and third sentences have very similar beginnings; phrasing could be varied.
 * Done. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * On more than one occasion we have "Smith herself". The "herself" is not necessary.
 * Done. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "It features a 60 piece orchestra,[27] which was recorded at Air Studios, in London..." I presume the album, not just the orchestra, was recorded at Air Studios.
 * I'm not honestly sure- I know that the orchestra recorded there, and that Smith was present, but I think the actual recording may have taken place in a number of places. I mention it because it's notable. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Looking again, there are other problems with this line. You don't need three citations to support  the non-contentious facts about the recording of Faryl. The first two make only the briefest mention of the recording, and aren't worth keeping. Also, why write "third of January" rather than "3 January" per MOS?  Finally, it's simply daft to imagine that the orchestra was in a different place when the album recording took place. I just want you to reword to make this clear. Brianboulton (talk) 22:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've had a play around. Each source, though none of them mention it much, adds something extra, but I've consolidated them into one footnote for easy reading. J Milburn (talk) 11:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think "the debut of Oliver! is quite the right choice of word. Oliver premiered in 1960. I assume this refers to the latest revival.
 * Yeah- the link goes to the 2009 London revival. (The one with Rowan Atkinson playing Fagin). I've rephrased. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "to ever sing" → "ever to sing"
 * Done. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless I missed something, the text does not give details of how successful Faryl was in the United States.
 * Added a note. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Grammar problem: "The only Classical BRIT Award voted for by the public, the nominations are made up of the ten best-selling classical albums of the previous year". Needs rephrasing.
 * Rephrased; better? J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I've tweaked to cut out some repetition. Brianboulton (talk) 22:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * General point: I notice that some of the verbatim quotes are a little lengthy. For example "We're starting to look at..." This quote extends for 70-odd words while saying relatively little. I would say something like: "In an interview she expressed surprise and pleasure that the label wanted her to do another album so soon after the first" - little more needs to be said.
 * Fair. Changed that one, I'll look into chopping down some of the others. I appreciate that slamming in long quotes is not a good way to write. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "more mixed" is clumsy. Just "mixed" or (my preference) "more balanced"
 * I went for "more negative"- it's not wholly negative, but it is more negative. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You need to sort out the inner quote marks in "on "Close To You" and other tracks, the lack of emotional weight is telling." Same again in 2nd para of "The Prayer" section (sentence beginning "Faryl Smith was my personal highlight..."
 * Done the first, how would you recommend I do the second? J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * As a general rule, use single apostrophes for the inner quotes. Brianboulton (talk) 22:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. J Milburn (talk) 11:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "Smith performed at the 2009 Royal Variety Performance in front of the Queen, where she sang "God Save the Queen" with The Soldiers.[60] She later said that "I think the highlight of the year was the Royal Variety performance and meeting the Queen." This reads somewhat leadenly and repetitively. Why not, after the first sentence: "She later described the experience as the highlight of her year".
 * Rephrased. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Mixed tenses: "Each vocalist in the group performed their own solo lines, and the entire group comes together for the finale."
 * No idea how I managed that. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I would identify the National Concert Hall as in Dublin, not just in "Ireland".
 * Done. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just a comment: £2,000 seems quite a small sum to be raised at a charity concert. Are you sure you haven't slipped a nought?
 * "On Saturday, May 21, Faryl Smith sang at a Help for Heroes benefit at there that raised £2,000 for the charity, which helps injured service personnel." It's not a big story; I'm just trying to make sure people are aware that she's still about (unlike, say, Johnston, who's not active at all at the moment). J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt she's still about; my point was the rather small amount raised by the charity event. I thought it might be more. But I read from the source that this was at a smallish private club, so that's OK. Brianboulton (talk) 22:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This needs a bit of sorting out, if only to clarify the chronology: "Smith enjoys playing football, and formerly played for Kettering Generals FC Under 13 girls,[80][81] and played for the Kettering Generals Under 11s girls' team when they reached the Weetabix League cup final." Try: "Smith enjoys playing football; she played for the Kettering Generals Under-11s girls' team when they reached the Weetabix League cup final, and also played for the club's Under-13 girls IX."
 * Rephrased as suggested. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

None of these are major points, and I'll be happy to support when they are addressed. (On an irrelevant matter, I wonder what inspired Tony and Linda to name their offspring "Faryl" and "Shea"?) Brianboulton (talk) 12:42, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I learn from some of the more personal interviews that "Faryl" was chosen as the parents heard it while on holiday in South Africa- I don't know about Shea! Thanks for your comments, I'll look into them soon. J Milburn (talk) 22:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for your comments; I have replied inline. J Milburn (talk) 10:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Your responses are mainly OK. There's a couple of points outstanding which I will wait for. Brianboulton (talk) 22:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's nearly a week since I left this. Have you overlooked it? Brianboulton (talk) 23:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, it's just trying to find a spare few minutes; I really do appreciate your comments. I will get to them today- I promise! Thanks, J Milburn (talk) 07:10, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Dealt with, thanks again! J Milburn (talk) 11:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment (GermanJoe), seems comprehensive and well-written, leaning support, just some more minor issues:
 * Britain's Got Talent - "She again performed "Ave Maria",[2] but finished outside the top three." ==> What went wrong? Any additional detail available, why the finale wasn't that well-received?
 * If I remember correctly, the finale was still very well received; it's just that she was among tougher competition. Critics of her albums would often point back to her BGT performances. The BGT final, in case you're not familiar, attracts tens of millions of viewers and votes; Johnston, who finished third, was a comparable act, and he had what the Daily Mail might have called a convenient sob-story about growing up in poverty and being bullied for his love of classical music. The other two in the final three were dancers- I personally never liked George Sampson (winner- also had a few sob stories about illness, poverty, and not making it the year before), but Signature (second place) had some real charisma. May be worth noting that another sort-of-classical act, Escala, finished outside the top three, despite being very good. I'd be tempted to say, cynical as I am, that the public don't want a middle-class girl who goes to a grammar school singing popera to win; the want a Paul Potts, a Susan Boyle, (both of whom have that "underdog" appeal) or a dance group. I'd be interested to know where Smith placed in the final, but, unlike the last series, they didn't reveal the rankings. J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Record deal - "Before the release of One Voice, it was revealed that Smith herself [and her father were] finalising the details of her own record deal. Her father, Tony Smith, said "we're dotting ..." ==> The quote states, both of them were working on the details, should be mentioned to clarify the situation.
 * Done. J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "By 2009 Jenkins [was] acting as Smith's mentor." ==> missing word
 * Done. J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "In January 2009 plans were released for Smith to perform with Placido Domingo. The idea was suggested by him." ==> Try to merge the stubby second sentence. Also what happened with those plans? The connection with the Charlotte Church interview is a bit unclear.
 * Nothing. A number of sources mention it, but nothing seemed to become of it. I could remove it, but that would leave the Charlotte Church para as rather short, and I do think that that is important- the comparison is obvious, and Smith received criticism for praising Church and for criticising her; she can't do right for doing wrong. J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Faryl - "Smith is the youngest artist ever to receive a double nomination." ==> Smith became ... - otherwise the statement will probably be outdated sometimes.
 * Done. J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wonderland - "on Tony Smith said that" ==> Start of sentence is damaged, missing word?
 * Fixed. Probably just me struggling to effectively use a cursor... J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "Wonderland was released on 30 November, with Smith saying "it is always a struggle when a second album comes out because you never know how it is going to do but fingers crossed people will enjoy it. I am very proud of it."[56] ==> Sorry to be the grumpy nitpicker, but Smith's quote adds no information here. That kind of personal statement is DVD bonus material, but not note-worthy encyclopedic.
 * No, that's fair. I've removed it. J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "He described Smith's "control, tone and warmth" as "very moving"" ==> Why no complete quote?
 * I could change it to "He said that Smith's "control, tone and warmth is very moving"." but that would mess with tenses a little. J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * " ... and peaked at 54." ==> rank 54 or 54th place would be more formal.
 * Done. Changed the other mentions of this type. J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Personal life - date of birth missing in main text.
 * Sure, added. J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Quotations see previous comments ==> per WP:MOSQUOTE single quote marks are preferred within double quotations. Also check, if some of the shorter quotations could probably be rephrased as regular text to reduce the overall number of quotes. GermanJoe (talk) 10:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I will look into the quote situation. Thanks very much for your comments, they are appreciated. J Milburn (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

More Comments (GermanJoe) after another read-through.
 * Try to avoid filler phrases like "also", "however", ..., when not absolutely necessary.
 * "perform" is used very often, sometimes repeated several times in a row.
 * On several occasions the article adds personal statements of the main persons (Smith, her father, producers) with little information value. 2 examples (among more):
 * -"Smith's father, Tony, said "at the moment we're promoting the album and making sure we're in the right places at the right time.""
 * -"Tony Smith said that the bosses at Universal were "hoping it will sell more than the first but it's a tough market. Lots of people bring out albums at Christmas"."
 * ==>The article should maintain an outsider's perspective on the events, too many quotes of involved persons hurt that impression. Suggest to recheck, which interview quotes are really needed for the article and provide factual information or important context and trim trivial or subjective information. GermanJoe (talk) 19:00, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.