Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Final Fantasy IV/Archive 1

Final Fantasy IV
This article has been transformed in the last few months, with an extensive peer review, it represents a huge amount of collaboration and time well spent. It is comprehensive, well referenced, concise, with images that directly relate and add the the article discussions I submit, for your approval, Final Fantasy IV for featured article status. Judgesurreal777 22:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Support I see no major issues. Deckiller 03:17, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Object. Looks better, but I still see some issues. (1) In the sentence about Uematsu's music tours, "in proof of which" sounds awkward. (2) Brian does raise some valid points below. I'm not sure how much print material is available on Final Fantasy IV, but, even on the web, there's more material to be incorporated. The Reception section in particular can be fleshed out. What in particular made FFIV highly acclaimed? More material can be found here:, . (3) Footnote 8 doesn't seem to support the corresponding assertion that it follows. (4) It occurred to me that some of the lead is probably too much detail into the release history. Could some of that be moved down into the "Development history" section and the lead changed to be a broader overview of the entire article? — TKD::Talk 05:46, 19 March 2006 (UTC) Structure and content look good, from my perspective. However, the writing could use polishing in spots:
 * "Gameplay in Final Fantasy IV is standard computer role-playing game fare; characters traverse an overworld to fulfill requirements of various quests, using towns to replenish strength, buy new equipment, and discover clues, all the while fighting monsters at random intervals.": Grammatically, dashes should be used to separate off "using towns to replenish strength, buy new equipment, and discover clues", since that phrase contains embedded commas, but that impairs the flow of the writing too much, so I'd suggest somehow breaking up this sentence for better clarity.
 * "On the moon, Cecil meets FuSoYa, who explains to him that he is descended from a race known as Lunarians.": Here it is unclear whether "he" refers to Cecil or FuSoYa. Obviously, the subsequent sentences clarify this, but the reader shouldn't have to go that far to know what a pronoun refers to.
 * "In this incarnation of the series, many well loved pieces were composed, so much so that he continues to do concert tours of Final Fantasy and use pieces from this game.": Syntactically, the phrase "so much so" initially appears to refer to "composed", when it really refers to "well loved". Recast the sentence to make this clearer. Also, "In this incarnation of the series" probably isn't the right phrase; I'd suggest "For this game" or similar.
 * "Square was forced to drop plans for the Famicom game and to continue development of the Super Famicom title, which was retitled Final Fantasy IV.": "Title" twice in four words is a bit jarring.
 * "One of the first localization projects undertaken by Square's North American branch, many criticized the original North American Final Fantasy II for the poor quality of its English language translation.": This sentence has a dangling modifier; it needs to be clarified that the first part of the sentence refers to "Final Fantasy II", not "many".
 * — TKD::Talk 04:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I was planning on giving the article a good copyedit, but I'm "technically on Wikibreak", so my time is limited :) I'll see what I can do. Deckiller 20:05, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Just as a note, please do not strike other people's comments. It's up to them to do so. I personally don't consider this case a big deal, but others could take offense. I'll re-read the article later, when I have more time, and re-evaluate my comments then. Thanks. — TKD::Talk 01:00, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Keeps getting better. Good work. The only really actionable comment that I have remaining is that I'd like to see the Reception and Development sections fleshed out more. know that at least a couple of the reviews went on about how the game's storyline and character development were fairly novel for RPGs at the time. I think that has to be mentioned as a starting point. — TKD::Talk 04:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Conditional Support. TKD raises some good points; the prose does need to be polished. Other than that, the article is in line with other video game FAs and I think with some polish it could be awarded both the honor of FA and my support vote. RyanG e rbil10 04:49, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It's got potential, but I have some concerns.
 * First, beginning with the "Development" section, the information is really sparse. More can be said about the development, certainly?
 * Similarly, the "Reception" section needs to be fleshed out. Where are the sales figures? Why aren't any of these reveiwers called by name? One paragraph is not enough for its own section.
 * The table of remakes is bulky and obtrusive and should be converted to prose.
 * Another concerns is the use of weasel words and unclear quotation. "Final Fantasy IV has been called one of the greatest video games of all time . . . ." Called by whom? Rephrase it as an active sentence to give more information about the source of that indirect quote. ". . . and is considered by many to be the popularizer of many common computer role-playing game features." "Considered by many" is a phrase that should set off warning bells in a reader's mind. Rephrase it to say exactly who considers it to be such.
 * Finally, the article is overly reliant on web sources. Do none of the print histories of video games mention this game? There is scholarly discussion of this game available, as this Google Scholar search shows. I also got a hit at Google Books. In short, the authors of this article need to do a bit more research and need to do it by doing a bit more than searching the web and playing the game. Granted, all of these additional sources I'm suggesting were found with a web search, but the print histories of video gaming might need to be found at the local library. :) — BrianSmithson 15:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Captions of images need to describe what the image is in addition to giving narratives WhiteNight T 11:16, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * But isn't it very clear what the images are in each case? It seems, to my eyes, that they ARE labeled as to what they are; clearly many are screenshots from the game, and the plot at which point they fall is explained precisely, and in the others where box art is used, this is also obvioius. And various versions are noted throughout. Could you explain? Thanks! Judgesurreal777 04:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * As example, the caption for the celtic nights (sp) remix soundtrack doesn't make it very apparent that it really is a remix soundtrack - someone unfamiliar with the genre might think it is some kind of sequel to the game, maybe. Same thing with the FFII caption (is it a box, manual?)- note that there was a nintendo version of FFII that is entirely different. Maybe people disagree but I think they could be more descriptive in general which is what I'm trying to get at :). WhiteNight T 06:31, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * How does it look now? :) 152.2.116.8 20:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * EXCELLENT! Thank you :). Just another star in the night T 01:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Support, as long as the one red link there is fixed. When I last saw the article, a few weeks ago, it looked pretty messy.  It has improved over the course of the month, so I say put it in. Crazyswordsman 19:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * One red link is fixed :) Judgesurreal777 22:57, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Object - Objecting mostly on "Comprehensiveness" terms. In particular:
 * I'm wary of a couple of what seem to be "stubby" sections, including "Musical Score" and "Reception". Musical Score in particular could use some elaboration, I think, including reviews and opinions of the sound track alone.  It could be made somewhat clearer that the two compilation albums listed were officially produced by Squaresoft, since I know there are independant bands that produce video game music.  You could also mention "Project Majestic Mix", one such independant release that was officially liscensed.
 * For the reception section, could you find any Japanese reviews of the game, instead of just the sale figures? Was it rereleased in Japan as well, and if so, what was the reception to that?
 * "Graphical improvements": I know there's more technical information that could be mentioned here, like the amount of memory used on the cartridge compared to other SNES games of the time.
 * I believe that the FFII information could be placed in its own section. It looks a little odd hanging off the remakes section after that chart like that.  Either move the chart down, or give it a section heading, or both.
 * I believe that the lead section should consist of two paragraphs. After the expansions I've mentioned above though, this might require three.
 * I'd like a citation for FFIV being a "very linear game"... surely it's been quoted as such somewhere, right? I mean, by playing the game, it's obvious, but I'm wary of potential original research claims.
 * Hopefully these items can be improved. Great game, I just don't think the article is quite ready yet. Fieari 19:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Object - None of the references are to reliable secondary sources. -- Gnetwerker 01:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know about "none". Some of the sources are questionable, but I would think that IGN/GameSpy and GameSpot are reputable within the context of gaming. — TKD::Talk 02:48, 25 March 2006 (
 * The sources used in this article are found in other video game FA's, such as Super Mario 64. IGN, Gamespot and Gamespy are all in the Mario article, Gamerankings.com is simply a compilation of various major reviewers impressions of games, Majestic Mix states on their website that they have covered FFIV music which you can order on CD, as there is a direct reference to the creator of the FFIV emulation we linked to his website, and the few remaining are review publications, only one of which is reviewed by a user. For this to be actionable, please tell me, which source do you object to? :) 24.211.192.79 04:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, I want to make this clear: let's not turn this into a 30kb debate over resources. It should be fairly easy to find a few creditable sources to balance off the ones already up/replace shaky ones. Both sides better not go OCD over such a MINOR issue. &mdash; Deckill e r 04:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point, but could you perhaps say which should go? Because I know what I think are the weak ones, but what has been objected to that must be replaced? Just want clarification :) No hard feelings here! Thanks much 24.211.192.79 04:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, here's my stance: Gamespot, GameSpy, etc. are all perfectly fine for video games. They are the espn.com or AMG of video games. They are reliable for stats and examples, though other sources need to be included to balance things out. It's all a matter of balance, I feel; not only will including some more sources that some people consider "better" diversify the reference section, but everyone will be at a compromise. That's all I'll comment on for this unless I'm addressed directly. &mdash; Deckill e r 04:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, I worked on the story section of this article, and my forte isn't necessarily references. That's about the extent I can provide, though I will shun any usage of fansites. &mdash; Deckill e r 04:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The rpgfan and lostlevels sites are the only ones I'm kind of concerned about. The FFII bad translation is well-known enough that I think you'd probably be able to find it in a more reputable review. Not sure if the information used from lostlevels can be found elsewhere, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. I totally agree about IGN, GameSpy, and GameSpot beingf fine for gaming-related articles, and I have no intention of objecting over one possibly weak source, if that's the only issue. I would say that the more important thing is to flesh out the Development and Reception sections, as Brian noted above. — TKD::Talk 05:02, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:RS. To be a reliable secondary source, the source must have consulted multiple primary sources.  A review of the sources used in this review shows that none of them provide references to other primary sources.  Thus, they are themselves primary sources, and are not suitable for an encyclopedia, regardless of whether previous articles on videogames have gotten away with it.  See Donkey Kong (arcade game) for an example of one that is done right, with appropriate secondary sources. -- Gnetwerker 18:12, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying what exactly your concern is; I had misinterpreted your original statement. First, I'm not sure that failure to cite multiple sources necessarily makes a source primary. Of course, it is preferable that a secondary source use multiple primary sources, and WP:RS states as much. However, that is not the sole criterion suggested for evaluating a source's reliability. Whether a source is primary or secondary is basesd on the context in which that source is used, not what it cites. I was always under the impression that, when writing about fiction, the fiction itself and sources closely relating to its creation/release (interviews with the creators, press releases, ancillary material included in the packaging, and the like) are primary sources, while commentary on it from outsiders would be secondary. In particular, WP:RS (which I had previously read) states that "a primary source is a source very close to the original state of affairs you are writing about". So I'd say that, in the realm of fiction, the game developers would be primary sources, while the third-party reviewers cited would be secondary sources, since the latter had nothing to do with the creation or any canonical interpretation of FFIV. On the other hand, if the article were about media coverage of games, then these reviews would be considered primary. — TKD::Talk 22:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I thank you for the clarification; I think we can now assume that what is needed are a few primary sourced book references to add to the article, but I strongly believe that the secondary sources in this article are very reliable, as reflected by their presence in such recently approved FA's like Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask. If anyone has some Final Fantasy books, let me know, it is difficult finding books on video games.... :) Judgesurreal777 22:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It would seem to me that a Featured Article should be held to a higher standard than the minimum required by WP:RS, even if your analysis is correct. I reiterate my Oppose. -- Gnetwerker 22:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You are correct that FAs should be held to a higher standard. I'm not saying that online sources will be entirely adequate for this article, especially given that the game is 15 years old. I was just concerned about the interpretation of sources currently used. If online sources were sufficient to cover the topic, I'd be fine with that, in principle. But, as Brian did note, there are potentially some high-quality print sources that can be used to flesh out the Development and Reception sections. — TKD::Talk 00:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You might also want to see whether you can find back issues of independent game magazines from 1991, and whether critics' views of the unchanged aspects of the game (characters, story) have changed over 15 years. I stress "independent" because I wouldn't trust, say, Nintendo Power to give an objective review of Final Fantasy II, although such a source might provide insight on how the game was marketed. Moreover, didn't one of the (recent) reviews compare the complexity of the plot of FFIV to that of Phantasy Star II? Direct comparisons to other games would be good to include. — TKD::Talk 00:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Object for a variety of reasons. I agree with User:BrianSmithson that the old table of remakes was a bit unsightly, but I would argue that the basic information there should be presented in a "quick reference" format akin to the main infobox. The current prose conversion is choppy and unsatisfactory as far as article flow goes, and the essentially buries the information. Personally, I'm fond of the "mini-infoboxes" used in the Final Fantasy article, although that may require some layout tweaking, since there's not much prose in some of these sections. Secondly, the point about WP:RS is a good one, and there are still a number of weasel words ("this game has been considered widely by many players and critics..." is literally a textbook example) and out-and-out point-of-view violations ("emotionally intense...", "very effective use...", and "famously beautiful scoring..." all occur in one introductory sentence) that make the whole thing seem a little uncritical and even hagiographic. The quality of writing isn't quite there yet: certain phrases, like "standard computer role-playing game fare" seem a little unprofessional, there's far too much passive voice in play, and a number of missing spaces between words. Lastly, the latest flurry of changes indicates that the article simply hasn't stabilized yet. It's improved a great deal in the past few weeks, but there are still problems that need to be addressed, and a sufficient amount of time needs to be allowed to pass to ensure that these problems remain addressed and new ones aren't introduced, before it's truly ready for featured status. – Seancdaug 05:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC)