Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/First Battle of Dernancourt/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 09:28, 13 May 2018.

First Battle of Dernancourt

 * Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:47, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

This article is about a joint British/Australian defensive battle on 28 March 1918 which played a small part in stemming the tide of the German Spring Offensive of WWI. A Tasmanian sergeant, Stanley McDougall, was instrumental in defeating the only real German breakthrough of the defences, and was subsequently awarded the Victoria Cross for his actions. This is the first WWI battle article I've developed from scratch, so hopefully it flows well. I believe it is comprehensive. All constructive comments gratefully received. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:47, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Operation_Michael_1918.jpg needs a US PD tag, and the uploader is not the author. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Removed. Thanks Nikkimaria! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 18:57, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Support from Hawkeye7
 * "northwestern" should be "north western"?
 * per MOS:COMPASS it's fine as long as it is consistent. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:04, 28 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Per WP:BIDIRECTIONAL, Every article that transcludes a given navbox should normally also be included as a link in the navbox so that the navigation is bidirectional. This is the case with the Spring Offensive navbox at the trop, but not the WWI navbox at the bottom. But its up to you.
 * Hawkeye7  (discuss)  20:32, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Removed the WWI navbox, it really isn't needed here. Thanks for taking a look Hawkeye! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:04, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Support: I reviewed this article when it was up for GA, and it has been improved greatly since then. I have the following comments: AustralianRupert (talk) 11:06, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * some of the the images lack alt text. I'm not sure if it is an FA requirement, but it might be helpful to add:
 * the external links all work and there are no dab links
 * do we know the German commander's name?
 * in the lead "2nd Army (German Empire)" is overlinked
 * elsewhere "Lancashire Fuisiliers" is also overlinked
 * I spot checked the citations to Coulthard-Clark and Carlyon as I have those sources
 * three German armies: suggest linking Field army here
 * 4th Division, Major General Ewen Sinclair-Maclagan was ordered: possibly needs a comma after "Maclagan"
 * He hosed them down with the gun: not sure about "hosed" here, it seems a bit informal
 * Thanks for the review . All done, except the German commander's name, which I have been unable to find in sources in English. I suspect only Bean's diaries/notes or the German formation histories would hold this information. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:50, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * No worries, thanks for looking. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:44, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I found the German corps commander's name, Hugo von Kathen, and added that in the body and infobox. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:56, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Support Comments by Sturmvogel_66

 * A few duplicate links
 * No DABs
 * Why was the 19/NF in the frontlines? It was a pioneer battalion, not infantry.
 * lined out about 200 yards what does lined out mean?
 * Who's Deayton?
 * into Dernancourt but they met missing comma
 * Nicely done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:40, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * G'day . All done, except the issue of 19 NF. Basically, divisional pioneer battalions were expected to be able to fight as infantry (same as engineers), and 35th Division had taken a battering since 21 March, so they were using whatever troops were available. I'm not sure I have a source for that, it's essentially from my personal knowledge of arms and services in WWI. Do you think I need to have a dig around for something to support a statement to that effect? Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:10, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'd prefer a little more explanation about why they were there, but I can live without it.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:28, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I had another look at Davson's divisional history, but in the context of Dernancourt he just mentions them as if they were an infantry battalion and doesn't refer to them as being pioneers pressed into service as infantry. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:30, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Coord cmt
Hi PM, just a note that as well as a source review for reliability/formatting, I would like to see someone from outside the MilHist community give this a once-over to check general accessibility, avoidance of jargon, etc. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:13, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:15, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Support from JennyOz
Hi Peacemaker67 and Ian, here are some comments from outside MilHist community. Firstly, I kept up with most jargon. PM has, as usual, intuitively wlinked terms that might be obscure to those readers unfamiliar with such, eg enfilade, minenwerfers, and the notes for "S.O.S. lines" and "artillery formation" were very helpful explanations.
 * I wasn't familiar with "garrisoned" as a verb in battle but it seems obvious enough.
 * Another was "off the line of march" which I would have tripped over if I hadn't seen it elsewhere last week and looked it up to understand.
 * Added "after a short artillery preparation/minimal artillery preparation" to clarify the difference from a set-piece assault
 * Not military jargon but I was going to suggest wlinking "copse" however it redirects to discussion of woodland management rather than its basic meaning.
 * The first link I tried was VII Corps - its short lede, rather disconcertingly, only mentions Second World War? (even though article goes on to discuss First, Somme etc)
 * Sadly, this is common, but I link anyway in case the target is improved
 * The Australian 3rd and 4th Divisions had been sent south to help - I wondered south from where?
 * Belgium, added
 * near Hébuterne in centre of the Third Army - the centre?
 * That division had been involved a series of fighting - in a series?
 * The forward positions of the salient held - wlink to Salient (military)
 * wounding the two man crew - hyphen? (as in one-man niches)
 * that the artillery fire be lifted at 14:00 - does that mean lifted as in stopped or increased as to provide cover?
 * changed to stop
 * Further reading, Shaw - is it normal to have a retrieved date?
 * Not usually, removed.
 * The attacks/sectors are complex to follow but the story is well told and, with Bean's invaluable map, this outsider now has a good appreciation of what unfolded there. Thank you PM, regards, JennyOz (talk) 16:06, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * All comments addressed. Thanks very much for taking a look, ! Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:02, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Sources review
All references are regularly formatted and well presented. The main sources, a judicious mix of old and new, look to be of the appropriate range, quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 20:58, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for taking a look, Brian! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

this looks good to go, can I have dispensation for another nom please? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:15, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, feel free. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:20, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 09:28, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.