Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Five Go Down to the Sea?/archive1

Five Go Down to the Sea?

 * Nominator(s): Ceoil  (talk) 19:12, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Its hard to explain how mysterious and influential this post-punk band was when I were growing up; nothing was known, the records couldn't be bought begged or borrowed (in my circles), but we all knew about them. I head them once in 1989, and despite pleading at the one alt city record store had to wait another 14 years for "Knot a Fish" to finally be reprinted. They have become better known in the last 10 years, following a radio documentary, a retrospective album and popular demand. There is a great story here; early promise, the realities of life in an early 80s indie group, inter-band and local-scene warfare, a tragic drowning, obscurity, later fame; fortunately the remaining band members, and their high profile fans, are very honest and articulate, so post a revival of interest and many interviews later, we now know a lot. Article has been fact checked by one of the sources (mcdermott), and User:Guliolopez has copy edited, read the on-line sources, and tended NPOV, though more input would be great. Ceoil (talk) 19:12, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Source thoughts from Guerillero
I love the article. I didn't know that there was an Irish post-punk scene that was a contemporary of the US's hardcore scene
 * I think the source review will turn on if a Medium post is a high quality RS. McDermott seems to be a subject matter expert, on Cork's music scene
 * McDermott 2009 is in a similar boat, if Irish college radio stations work like American ones. On the other hand, the text claims that it was more or less published by Raidió Teilifís Éireann
 * Yeah worry about that too, but McDermott 2009 was published by RTE; he won a national award for it, could prob have a bio here, and the doc is talking heads, ie interviews with the main protagonists, no editorial voice, so comfortable with it. Put it this way, if the page had just a link to RTE and didnt credit the UCC origins would you be more reassured. The later doc on medium is outakes from the first, again no editorial voice. Ceoil  (talk) 20:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The 2nd part of the doc is mentioned in Hot Press here, with a link to Medium host, as the 2nd part to the published doc. For better or worse, HP is Ireland's best known print rock mag. Ceoil  (talk) 00:17, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * See also Paul McDermott (broadcaster) Ceoil  (talk) 21:52, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Cavanagh 2000 is unused
 * sorted, but will add later. Ceoil  (talk) 21:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Hot Press is linked in Ref 23 when the first use is Ref 17
 * Not seeing this, but maybe its because I'm thick, which is very likely, haha. Ceoil  (talk) 21:16, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Doh. Fixed now. Ceoil  (talk) 08:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Does NME do volumes and issues? I think I see them on the covers of the issues in the article about the publication, but that might not have appeared until later
 * Same with Melody Maker
 * Not than I can see. Both have dreadful pay walled online archives. Ceoil  (talk) 20:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is the NME cover - no issue details afaiks. Ceoil  (talk) 16:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)


 * You are mixing c1 and c2 templates in the Sources
 * The what now? Not technical enough to follow this sorry. Help appreciated!! Ceoil  (talk)
 * Another editor resolved this. Ceoil  (talk) 22:27, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

McAvoy's book is almost like a bible to us Cork music archaeologists; as you say it was well received locally and nationally. The reviewers are all heavy weights in terms of Irish music. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Does the Zine that came with Hiding From The Landlord have bylines?
 * No, it was compiled by a few different people; I suspect mainly by mcDermott, but dunno beyond that. Its notable because most of the contributors are v well known over here, in both England and Ireland. Ceoil  (talk) 21:00, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Found the names in the small print :) Will add later this afternoon. Ceoil  (talk) 08:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 16:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * South Bank Press doesn't have a web presence, beyond a twitter account. That makes me feel dicey about McAvoy 2016. The press coverage about it in the Cork newspapers does make me feel better about it
 * McAvoy 2016 has been published by Mercier Press Google books...now updated in article. Ceoil  (talk) 08:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Perfect! I think the reliability of the rest of the sources by McAvoy follow -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  17:09, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * To be clear; the cited book "Cork Rock: From Rory Gallagher to the Sultans of Ping", was published by Mercier Press. Ceoil  (talk) 22:02, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

-- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  20:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you a bunch Guerillero. Ceoil  (talk) 21:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Nothing to do with the article, but have you noticed the link doesn't work on the fac page? When you click on it, instead of coming here, it takes you a blak page. Bizarre! Something to do with the question mark I think. ——  Serial # 13:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi, would you mind revisiting this pls, there have been many updates to the sourcing. Tks. Ceoil (talk) 14:32, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I will take a look tonight -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  16:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support from Cas Liber
An engaging read - queries below...


 *  He was replaced that September by Giordaí Ua Laoghaire, [later of Microdisney and Nine Wassies From Bainne].... - I might remove this as you mention he joins Microdisney a few sentences later.


 *  Stack was frustrated by some of the band's heaving drinking -? "heavy"?

Otherwise an engaging read prose-wise. I suspect it's comprehensive too. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:01, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Have got them now; thanks. Ceoil  (talk) 10:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Image review
 * Suggest adding alt text
 * File:Five_Go_Down_To_The_Sea.png: FUR is a bit minimal at the moment, suggest elaborating particularly the purpose. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:33, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi Nikki, will do. Ceoil  (talk) 15:50, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Have added alts. Ceoil  (talk) 22:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support from Moise
Hi. This is a placeholder for now marking my intention to start a review very soon. Thanks. Moisejp (talk) 14:56, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Starting my comments now, cheers:

Lead: Cork:
 * "they released further EPs with Kabuki Records, Abstract Sounds and Creation Records". From the rest of the article and the Discography section it sounds like only Knot a Fish was on Kabuki Records, so here "further" would be imprecise. Also a bit or inconsistency in the article about the name of the label Abstract Sounds (presumably the real name) vs. Abstract Records.
 * Sorted Ceoil  (talk) 20:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Dineen was influenced by the Mekons, the Fire Engines, Gang of Four and Siouxsie and the Banshees". This detail is only mentioned in the lead, not in the main text. I'd like to suggest it would be a very good idea for overall coherency to include it in the main text as well.
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Likewise the detail "Author Mark McAvoy described Donnelly as probably the most influential musician of the Cork music scene in 2016" is not mentioned in the main text.
 * I do say "Five Go Down to the Sea?, and Donnelly in particular, are credited for influencing the dry humour of Cork bands in later decades.[17]" - dont want to repete the quote. Ceoil  (talk) 14:03, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Inconsistency or "RTE" (lead) vs. "RTÉ" (main text).
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Although the band only released five EPs": From the Discography section, it is not clear which releases are included in the five. If any of the RTE releases are included, then for consistency they should be marked as EPs in the Discography section. I'm not sure whether Beethoven's Him Goolie Goolie Man, Dem is meant to be included in the five, but if so, can Beethoven even be considered the same band (there were only two members the same, on top of the name change)? Moisejp (talk) 12:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thinking about this. Its a bit like the Fall, lots of line up changes, but if it was Dineen and Donnelly on bongos, it was the FGGTTS. Ceoil  (talk) 14:22, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Done re nr of EPs; have moved out the fanning sessions (a bit like Peel sessions), so its clearer now. There were four EPs. Beethoven are certainly the same as FFGTTS, just the third incarnation, and are treated as such by all sources, including this year's compilation album. As I say, lots of line up changes, but the core was always Donnelly/Dineen. Ceoil  (talk) 16:57, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "They soon became leaders in a punk movement that grew around the Arcadia ballroom, next by Kent station." Should this be "next to Kent Station"? The Wikipedia article capitalizes "Station". I'm not sure if "next by" may be a regional English, but "next to" (or just "by," though vaguer) sounds much more natural to me.
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "until then, Dineen said the band had been "playing to their abilities"." Should this be something like "Dineen has said that until then, the band had been "playing to their abilities" "? Right now the time line is especially unclear about whether he may have been saying it at the time.
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ""Nun Attax walked in and there was Donnelly I'd been avoiding him around town for ages because I was afraid of him." Is any additional punctuation required here? If it appears like that in the source, personally I would consider breaking it up into two quotes, or not including the whole quote, so that it doesn't appear like an error. Moisejp (talk) 11:34, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Beethoven:
 * The lead describes "Him Goolie Goolie Man, Dem" as a single (marked with quotation marks, as singles should be), while the main text (and the Discography section) calls it an EP and italicizes it (as EPs should be). I realize there could sometimes be a grey area about what constitutes a multi-track single or an EP (extended play), possibly complicated here by NME calling it "Single of the Week", but I feel nonetheless the article should try to be more consistent about whether it is one or the other (at least for the non-NME references). Moisejp (talk) 12:01, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks Moisejp for the review and edits. All good points, working though. Ceoil  (talk) 14:03, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * All adressed now I think. Ceoil  (talk) 20:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Ceoil. OK, I'm finished reviewing and happy to support on prose (I'd hoped to also look at some of the sources but unfortunately I don't think I will have time this time). My only other minor comment is if it was me, I don't know that I would treat "gig" (as a noun and as a verb) as encyclopedic language. You use it extensively in the article. But if you feel it's fine, then OK. My opinion about the issue is not that strong. Cheers, Moisejp (talk) 05:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks Moisejp. I don't think you could call them "concerts", but while change a few to simply "played". Ceoil  (talk) 16:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

SG review

 * In external links, am I supposed to know what Bandcamp is? Should that be linked for nimwits like me?
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I suspect this Paul McDermott is not the one mentioned? Since Headbomb's reliability script doesn't like medium.com, we should establish McDermott as a reliable contributor. We have five sources from him, so he is likely reliable, but can we get him stubbified?
 * Yes, could do a stub. Re medium, it wasn't made for or by them, a version is stored there. I might change the att, presumably he has a production company. Ceoil  (talk)
 * Have started Paul McDermott (broadcaster); will add over coming hours. Ceoil  (talk) 19:58, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Dineen was influenced by bands such as the Mekons and the Fire Engines … since "the" is part of the band name, why is it not uppercase? Ditto for the Three Johns (Sheesh, I used to know this stuff … I could be wrong :)
 * I think I'm wrong on this ... see Something (Beatles song). Where to check?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  19:08, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The Beatles are a special case...there is a very bitter debate on wiki as to weather they are Beatles or The Beatles. Ceoil  (talk) 19:12, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I had some recollection, but not firm :) Anyways, I leave these to you.  Bst, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  19:15, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Does a band that gets together again reform or re-form?
 * Either seems fine according to google. I prefer reform, but tis not a hill I would die on. Ceoil  (talk) 19:24, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * … developed a following among Cork's students and middle-class south suburbs … residents of those suburbs? In those suburbs?  Not sure a "suburb" can be a band follower …
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Typically, he would bring … might that "he" be switched to Dineen? Unsure on this …
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Ua Laoghair was a more accomplished musician … does this opinion need attribution?
 * Dineen has said it several times. Now clarified. Ceoil  (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Jargon? becoming again a four piece … four-piece band ?
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * This was in part due to the lack of job prospects resulting from the economic recession that hit Cork in the early 1980s, which resulted in emigration from Cork city. Resulting from … resulted … repetition.
 * Eeek. Re-phrased. Ceoil  (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Led or lead? This was in part due to the lack of job prospects resulting from the economic recession that hit Cork in the early 1980s, which lead to high levels of emigration from Cork city. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  21:49, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * described as "a raw discordant … attribute the quote?
 * Now attributed to source. Ceoil  (talk) 21:31, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Donnelly has been described as "magnetic" and "charismatic", ... by whom, attribution?
 * By all who met him! Hold on, will work through. Ceoil  (talk) 21:33, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Done Ceoil  (talk) 21:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think for accessibility, you should not be smalling the dates in the section, Five_Go_Down_to_the_Sea%3F; would know.
 * It's okay to use  tags on normal size text (I'm not sure why one would want to, in this case, but it doesn't breach MOS:FONTSIZE). The real problem arises when small text is placed inside elements like infoboxes where all of the text is already reduced in size. HTH --RexxS (talk) 19:17, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Can see how this would be a problem. I had copied a template, but from checking these sections are not usually like that. ps thanks for view RexxS; my opneion also "not sure why one would want to". Ceoil  (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

This is all minor stuff, some may be wrong; I expect to support. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Agree with suggestions; working through now. Ceoil  (talk) 19:13, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi Sandy, all addressed now I think. Thanks for most a helpful review. Ceoil  (talk) 21:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

All good, Support another fine article by Ceoil! Sandy Georgia (Talk)  21:50, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Accessibility review from RexxS
Hope that's helpful. --RexxS (talk) 19:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It is. Thank you. Ceoil  (talk) 19:56, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Coord note
are your concerns dealt with? --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes! The sourcing looks good to me -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  14:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * (because Guerillero pinged themself :) Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)